Home » Discussion Forums » Blog Post Discussion » Ugly Truth in Storytelling
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| Re: Ugly Truth in Storytelling [message #22994 is a reply to message #22991 ] |
Tue, 10 November 2009 19:24   |
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I hear it happens to most writers. You're not alone. :)
PS. Everyone is conspiring against you.
Smooshes!
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| Re: Ugly Truth in Storytelling [message #23002 is a reply to message #22991 ] |
Tue, 10 November 2009 21:17 |
 b_twin_1
Messages: 2621
Registered: September 2008
Location: Victoria, Australia |
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§ Yes, like SUNSHINE was originally a short story that ended at the end of part one
... The end of PART ONE??!!! Frell. O.O Thank you for continuing and ensuring my sanity (HA)!
*imagines the letters Robin would have received if the story had ended at the end of PART ONE*
I've got a plan so cunning you could put a tail on it and call it a weasel ~ Blackadder
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| Re: Ugly Truth in Storytelling [message #23009 is a reply to message #23005 ] |
Tue, 10 November 2009 23:40 |
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| L.R.K. wrote on Tue, 10 November 2009 20:42 |
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††† What do you mean why does the heroine turn into a giant Opuntia spinosissima and the hero into a Python reticulatus? Don’t you know anything about the Pegasus myth?
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You can't cite Carroll as precedent for not explaining every little detail? 
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I can pretty much play the Horne in my head at will^^
^^ Complete with the hissy sound of an old LP worn to death by a needle that should have been changed several hundred plays ago, only student and immediate post-student budgets don’t run to stereo needles
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You mean, something along these lines?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjE0Kdfos4Y
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Wrong link, I think, but thanks for the lyrebird, he's incredible. Or, I guess you were saying that Robin adds the needle-hiss to her mental song, like the lyrebird does car alarms. Anyway, thanks.
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| Re: Ugly Truth in Storytelling [message #23010 is a reply to message #22991 ] |
Wed, 11 November 2009 01:20 |
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 Diane in MN
Messages: 2758
Registered: October 2008
Location: Twin Cities, MN, USA |
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this is the ‘okay, I’ll think about that later’ list, and the ‘must shoehorn this in somewhere’ list. This latter especially pertains to the stuff I left out because I know the story.
I believe this is an occupational hazard for anyone who writes anything. A good (early) reader is someone who can find the holes.
Although I don’t understand Tatar declaring that children do not identify with characters in books—this does not seem to me the sort of thing Byatt^^ would get wrong—
Yes, this is a pretty sweeping generalization and one that I wouldn't agree with, although it's probably true for some kids and some books.
when I was a kid I pretty much wouldn’t read a book if I couldn’t find someone to identify with, and in my powerful desire to read stories I developed a wonderfully strong and adaptable ability to identify with whichever character I found the most interesting. Who was almost always a bloke.
Oh yes, me too. Back in the day, a girl whose tastes ran to SF or fantasy or animal stories and such would have had to do this, because those were "boys' books". I was over 30 when I read The Blue Sword; I nodded happily at the dedication, and my two principal reactions were "This is a terrific book!" and "Why wasn't anyone writing books like this when I was a kid?"
I suspect that passionate readers who care about stories all develop that ability to identify with interesting characters of any description--it's one of the great gifts one gets from reading--but it interests me that in the discussions of books-in-general, books-as-gifts, books-for-kids etc., it is generally pointed out that girls will read stories about boys, but boys are much less likely to read stories about girls.
Whose THE CHILDREN’S BOOK is one of those holding down the other side of my bed
I took this book to Chattanooga thinking I'd have reading time; I should have known better. Now it will probably have to wait until December. I did discover that Almost Everybody Dies--skimming novels doesn't require big blocks of reading time--but I think it's well to know this in advance . . .
"The point of books is to have way too many but to always feel you never have enough . . . " Louise Erdrich
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| Re: Ugly Truth in Storytelling [message #23011 is a reply to message #23009 ] |
Wed, 11 November 2009 01:45 |
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L.R.K.
Messages: 1090
Registered: October 2008
Location: Sweden |
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| abigailmm wrote on Wed, 11 November 2009 05:40 |
Wrong link, I think, but thanks for the lyrebird, he's incredible. Or, I guess you were saying that Robin adds the needle-hiss to her mental song, like the lyrebird does car alarms. Anyway, thanks.
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Yes, exactly.
And he's lovely, isn't he? That's one of my favourite parts of Life of Birds - and not only mine, apparently, since I typed Life of Birds on Youtube, and that was the first thing on the list...
Why, I feel all thin, sort of stretched, if you know what I mean, like butter that has been scraped over too much bread.
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| Re: Ugly Truth in Storytelling [message #23015 is a reply to message #23014 ] |
Wed, 11 November 2009 07:27 |
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Kuro
Messages: 97
Registered: October 2009
Location: Luray, VA, USA |
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| Lucy Coats wrote on Wed, 11 November 2009 07:14 |
| jmeadows wrote on Wed, 11 November 2009 00:24 |
I hear it happens to most writers. You're not alone.
PS. Everyone is conspiring against you.
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Now Jodi--that last PS is Just Not Playing Nice And Robin, it happens to me all the time--I have all this STUFF in my head about the story--and why can't Other People just know it by osmosis? *whine* *whimper* Do I really HAVE to write it down?  *sigh* Truly--you are Not Alone.
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I heartily second this. I know what just happened, or that Descriptive Detail that leads to Significant Inferences. Why on earth doesn't the Reader automatically know them? Silly Readers..oh wait, that's me too, isn't it? But yes, osmosis. I think it would make college easier.
This is goodnight and not goodbye.
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| Re: Ugly Truth in Storytelling [message #23017 is a reply to message #22991 ] |
Wed, 11 November 2009 10:01 |
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Mrs Redboots
Messages: 949
Registered: October 2008
Location: London, UK |
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This was my thing for Beauty and the Beast. It was pretty much the only fairy tale I read, growing up in the 50s, where I wanted to identify with the girl.
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Oddly enough, I've been wondering what it would be like to write a version of the tale from the Beast's point of view. So far, it's only mental musings before I fall asleep at night, but, you see, I already have a Beauty from a failed version I tried to write a couple of years ago! And it might just work better from the other POV....
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So I have to listen to someone doing it with passion. Maybe I could just go in there next week and scream, Agents! Husbands! Editors! Oh Dio! Rispondi! Rispondi!
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Maybe if you think about agents and husbands and editors while you are singing you will get the passion he wants?
Am absolutely loving FIRE, by the way.
Mrs Redboots
I love my computer because my friends live in it!
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| Re: Ugly Truth in Storytelling [message #23022 is a reply to message #23015 ] |
Wed, 11 November 2009 11:30 |
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Melissa Mead
Messages: 997
Registered: October 2008
Location: Albany, NY, USA |
Senior Member |
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| Kuro wrote on Wed, 11 November 2009 07:27 |
| Lucy Coats wrote on Wed, 11 November 2009 07:14 |
| jmeadows wrote on Wed, 11 November 2009 00:24 |
I hear it happens to most writers. You're not alone.
PS. Everyone is conspiring against you.
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Now Jodi--that last PS is Just Not Playing Nice And Robin, it happens to me all the time--I have all this STUFF in my head about the story--and why can't Other People just know it by osmosis? *whine* *whimper* Do I really HAVE to write it down? *sigh* Truly--you are Not Alone.
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I heartily second this. I know what just happened, or that Descriptive Detail that leads to Significant Inferences. Why on earth doesn't the Reader automatically know them? Silly Readers..oh wait, that's me too, isn't it? But yes, osmosis. I think it would make college easier.
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Yes- isn't it all supposed to instinctively flow onto the paper? This IS fantasy, after all...
Member of Carpe Libris: http://carpelibris.wordpress.com/
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| Re: Ugly Truth in Storytelling [message #23043 is a reply to message #22995 ] |
Wed, 11 November 2009 19:52 |
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Robin
Messages: 6025
Registered: September 2008
Location: England |
Senior Member
[Hellgoddess] |
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| blondviolinist wrote on Tue, 10 November 2009 19:44 |
Oooh! My library has Enchanted Hunters. I may have to go check it out this week. (They also have two copies of Fire being processed, but since I already have my copy, I don't need to borrow that one :) Actually, I've already read my copy and loaned it to a friend. Hope he gives it back sometime before winter break... I want to reread it.)
********* Oh good. :)
I don't know why Orpheus had such a problem finding & keeping Euridice. I can't get away from her... we were listening to Act 1 from Montiverdi's L'Orfeo today in class, and now she shows up on Robin's blog. (I'm pretty sure I ran into her last week, too, but I can't remember in what context.)
********* Er . . . my blog. She'll probably be here NEXT week too.
Also, the ending of Orpheus is rather upsetting for a musician...
******** Stick to Gluck. It's all jollity and chirpy singing in Gluck. (I ADORE the final chorus.) And for the rest, the Maenads are just manifestations of ancient Greek misogyny. That's not what REALLY happened. :)
PS: Funny thing... I don't remember a cactus in the Pegasus legend.
*********** But you remember the python, right?
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| Re: Ugly Truth in Storytelling [message #23047 is a reply to message #23010 ] |
Wed, 11 November 2009 20:08 |
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Robin
Messages: 6025
Registered: September 2008
Location: England |
Senior Member
[Hellgoddess] |
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| Diane in MN wrote on Wed, 11 November 2009 01:20 |
when I was a kid I pretty much wouldn’t read a book if I couldn’t find someone to identify with, and in my powerful desire to read stories I developed a wonderfully strong and adaptable ability to identify with whichever character I found the most interesting. Who was almost always a bloke.
Oh yes, me too. Back in the day, a girl whose tastes ran to SF or fantasy or animal stories and such would have had to do this, because those were "boys' books". I was over 30 when I read The Blue Sword; I nodded happily at the dedication, and my two principal reactions were "This is a terrific book!" and "Why wasn't anyone writing books like this when I was a kid?"
*********** Yep. That's exactly why I grew up to write what I did. Contrary to some of the accusatory mail I get I do NOT hate men. But women haven't made it to equal time yet, and since I happen to *be* a woman. . . .
I suspect that passionate readers who care about stories all develop that ability to identify with interesting characters of any description--it's one of the great gifts one gets from reading--but it interests me that in the discussions of books-in-general, books-as-gifts, books-for-kids etc., it is generally pointed out that girls will read stories about boys, but boys are much less likely to read stories about girls.
************ Yes. I hear this all the time. It's discouraging, but it's not a battle I'm particularly fitted to engage in.
Whose THE CHILDREN’S BOOK is one of those holding down the other side of my bed
I took this book to Chattanooga thinking I'd have reading time; I should have known better. Now it will probably have to wait until December. I did discover that Almost Everybody Dies--skimming novels doesn't require big blocks of reading time--but I think it's well to know this in advance . . . :)
********** I ABSOLUTELY want to know if great swathes of the characters die, or even one that you're likely to be fond of. I found out because I read another rather negative review which picks it apart. (I immediately sided with Byatt, however, since while I was glad to know Everybody Dies, I HATE reviews whose chief purpose seems to be to ruin the plot for you. Let me tell you about the reviews of OUTLAWS OF SHERWOOD . . . )
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| Re: Ugly Truth in Storytelling [message #23061 is a reply to message #23058 ] |
Wed, 11 November 2009 20:20 |
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| Robin wrote on Wed, 11 November 2009 20:16 |
Oh, you mean blood? Yes, I get that. I get it from the *hellhounds.* :)
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It might be like that thing where people start looking like their dogs or cats. I don't *think* I look like a ferret (though they're awfully cute and I wouldn't say no), but I think their attitudes are pretty contagious. ;)
Smooshes!
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| Re: Ugly Truth in Storytelling [message #23064 is a reply to message #23056 ] |
Wed, 11 November 2009 20:38 |
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L.R.K.
Messages: 1090
Registered: October 2008
Location: Sweden |
Senior Member |
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| Robin wrote on Thu, 12 November 2009 02:15 |
Yes, First Flight almost didn't make it. Even without cooperation from the Story Council I could've let it . . . er . . . fly into short-novel length. Having bashed it down to squeeze into FIRE, I will have to wait and see if the SC offers me anything further.
But I don't write sequels, of course.
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I wouldn't be too sure... that Story Council sounds like an awful tease... First people are begging you for sequels, and they obstinately refuse to provide any - now they've gifted you with a novel in two parts... I'd not be too sure that they aren't capable of producing a sequel or two on "the they do it to annoy, just because they know it teases"-principle.
[Updated on: Wed, 11 November 2009 20:44]
Why, I feel all thin, sort of stretched, if you know what I mean, like butter that has been scraped over too much bread.
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| Re: Ugly Truth in Storytelling [message #23065 is a reply to message #23061 ] |
Wed, 11 November 2009 20:42 |
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L.R.K.
Messages: 1090
Registered: October 2008
Location: Sweden |
Senior Member |
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| jmeadows wrote on Thu, 12 November 2009 02:20 |
| Robin wrote on Wed, 11 November 2009 20:16 |
Oh, you mean blood? Yes, I get that. I get it from the *hellhounds.*
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It might be like that thing where people start looking like their dogs or cats. I don't *think* I look like a ferret (though they're awfully cute and I wouldn't say no), but I think their attitudes are pretty contagious. 
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What about sounding like them? I'm quite good at mimicing Sassi's voice, but generally I do it on purpose - once, though, U (a librarian where I worked) said something to me, and I answered:
"Mmmmm?" or something similar.
"You know that you just sounded like a cat, don't you?" she asked. (She's also a cat-fan, by the way.)
And I had - but that was not on purpose - not that I mind, though, really...
Why, I feel all thin, sort of stretched, if you know what I mean, like butter that has been scraped over too much bread.
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| Re: Ugly Truth in Storytelling [message #23066 is a reply to message #23065 ] |
Wed, 11 November 2009 20:46 |
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That too, I'm sure. Though I'm honestly not sure anymore if Kippy tries to sound like us, or we've started hmm?ing like her.
Smooshes!
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| Re: Ugly Truth in Storytelling [message #23076 is a reply to message #23043 ] |
Wed, 11 November 2009 23:12 |
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blondviolinist
Messages: 1076
Registered: October 2008
Location: Midwestern United States |
Senior Member |
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| Robin wrote on Wed, 11 November 2009 19:52 |
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(I'm pretty sure I ran into her last week, too, but I can't remember in what context.)
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********* Er . . . my blog. She'll probably be here NEXT week too.
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Oh, yeah. That's right. Made me think of "Orpheus in the Underworld, which is ridiculous silliness. (I think I'd also been looking ahead at the Monteverdi Orfeo we were going to be studying for class.)
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******** Stick to Gluck. It's all jollity and chirpy singing in Gluck. (I ADORE the final chorus.) And for the rest, the Maenads are just manifestations of ancient Greek misogyny. That's not what REALLY happened.
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There's at least a dozen opera versions of Orfeo from around the 17th cent., and almost every one had a different ending. Sometimes Orfeo died, sometimes the gods came down and saved Euridice. You just never knew how it was going to end
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But you remember the python, right?
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Yes, but not very well. (I'm not imagining things, am I? I really do remember some python snake thingy.) I haven't read the Pegasus legend lately, mostly because I don't really like Bellerophon, and always kind of felt sorry for Pegasus having to be saddled (har har) with such a lame hero.
"Purity of heart is to will one thing." Kirkegaard
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| Re: Ugly Truth in Storytelling [message #23084 is a reply to message #22991 ] |
Thu, 12 November 2009 04:59 |
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oh Orpheo... we're doing an Orpheo workshop this year with our acting teacher. not Monteverdi, but Gluck, Haydn, Offenbach and Milhaud.
right now he's staging the recit. and duet (and after he'll be doing the arias) from the Gluck. his Euridice is in a mental assylum and Orpheo comes to get her out. interesting.
back when I was a mezzo, I sang Che Faro for a bit. but it was also the aria that distracted me into a small yet costly bump into another car when I was driving, and that's put a bit of a damper on it for me ever since...
that being said, we *always* have to mean the words we sing when we sing. it's a prerequisite. it's not the easiest thing, but that's what makes it interesting. you're becoming the character when you sing such things. right now I have to become the man who sings Schubert's Winterreise for a couple of songs because we're doing it with orchestra. based on everything I put into the audition piece, it's going to take up a lot of energy, but it'll be fun quite the pants-role.
"they say that absence makes the heart grow fungus".
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