Home » Discussion Forums » Blog Post Discussion » Frelling Ratbags
| Frelling Ratbags [message #18497] |
Thu, 23 July 2009 20:16  |
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Frelling Ratbags
Smooshes!
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| Re: Frelling Ratbags [message #18498 is a reply to message #18497 ] |
Thu, 23 July 2009 20:30  |
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Argh.
1. I hate cancer. HATE.
2. I'd be mad about Mike, too. Actually, I *am* mad about Mike. (Not as mad as you are, but mad, nonetheless. I take companion animals Very Seriously.)
Argh.
Smooshes!
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| Re: Frelling Ratbags [message #18513 is a reply to message #18497 ] |
Fri, 24 July 2009 04:39 |
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 Diane in MN
Messages: 2730
Registered: October 2008
Location: Twin Cities, MN, USA |
Senior Member |
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Damn cancer. Good luck to your friend; I hope this is an eminently treatable situation. ::crosses fingers and lights candle::
But I want to say something utterly naive and puerile here about how can you love a critter and not put in the basic time to train it, if it’s the kind that needs training? [. . .] And basic companion-animal training just isn’t that hard. You just have to do it. And there’s nothing wrong with Mike but its lack.
Of course this isn't naive and puerile, it's sensible and adult and proactive, and (sorry, Pollyanna) that's why lots of people fail to do it. And most of them are pretty lucky; their untrained dog may be a pest, but not a snappy one, or it's small enough that its bad behavior is "cute" and not threatening. Or they keep it outside behind a fence and don't worry about it. I agree with you that this is a depressing situation, but there is a bright side: better he go to a new home now, while he's young and more easily trainable, than stay where he's not getting what he needs and might end up in big trouble. You've probably thought of this already, but I'd suggest talking to his breeder for help in placing him.
I think what it does is give me, for about five seconds about three nights out of four, the illusion of having real dogs, you know, the kind that think food is terrific, the kind you can clicker-train because they respond to treats.
As I understand it you don't have to use food to clicker-train; it's a lot easier if you have a food-motivated dog, but you can click and praise or pet or give a toy, too. But everything's easier if they care about treats.
Oh yes, and Pegasus the Cow has just taken another dive into the ravine
Bad Pegasus! BEHAVE!
"The point of books is to have way too many but to always feel you never have enough . . . " Louise Erdrich
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| Re: Frelling Ratbags [message #18523 is a reply to message #18497 ] |
Fri, 24 July 2009 09:30 |
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Black Bear
Messages: 3216
Registered: September 2008
Location: Indianapolis, IN USA |
Senior Member
[Moderator] |
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† Dogs, cats, horses, giraffes, poison dart frogs, whatever
My dart frogs would love it if I got a giraffe. Endless climbing potential! And they'd see them as kindred spirits--yellow with black spots, black with yellow spots... An ideal match.
†† I think poison dart frogs generally just hang out in their terrariums.
Generally, yes. I accidentally left the top off the other day, and neither of them made a break for it. But I'm not going to count on that behavior for future.
Courage on Pegasus! Despite appearances, the cow doesn't want to be in the ravine any more than you do, I'm sure... 
"The time is always right to do what's right."--MLK Jr.
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| Re: Frelling Ratbags [message #18525 is a reply to message #18497 ] |
Fri, 24 July 2009 10:12 |
karalianne
Messages: 13
Registered: June 2009
Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, ... |
Junior Member |
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Cancer sucks. I hope your friends are among those who recover.
I think people are often under the impression that having pets is much easier than it actually is. They are taken in by the cute and forget about the labour. My parents went to Angola for a month, and two weeks before they left, they got a two-month old puppy. I was house-sitting for the first two weeks, and when I came he knew "sit." While I was there, I think I got him mostly house trained, started teaching him to play fetch ("go get it" and "give"), and began his leash education. My younger brother took over for me last week, and I returned to my own home, which currently houses a cat and two guinea pigs (and a man, but he's completely untrainable - I've tried).
The cat we got from someone who had unwanted kittens; she was supposedly three months old, but I think she was only one month, at most six weeks; her eyes and ears were open, and she could eat kibble, but she wasn't completely litter trained yet. She killed her first mouse when she was only a couple of months old - it was a toss-up as to which would win.
The guinea pigs, well, I took one in from a friend who was moving and couldn't keep the guinea pig (it was sad; she had to find homes for her dog and cat, too, and she's an animal person); the other I took in because the family who owned her didn't want her anymore. I actually haven't bought a guinea pig from the pet store since I got my second one, way back when I was 12. That's 20 years of getting guinea pigs from friends whose piggies had babies, from my junior high when piggies needed homes, from the Humane Society, and from people who simply didn't care about them anymore. Isabella and Guido are my eleventh and twelfth guinea pigs, respectively. (I might be addicted. Actually, I know I am; I intend to open a guinea pig rescue someday, and I plan to have a pet capybara or three once we're not living in the city any longer.)
Feral novels... I really need to gather my courage and start working on the two I outlined while I was pet-sitting (did I mention that my parents also have two geriatric cats, one of which is diabetic and the other of which has kidney failure?) - it's scary to think about, though I have good outlines and I know the stories and characters are strong! I'm sure you'll be able to pull Pegasus back in line!
I am planning to bake some pies this afternoon, but I shan't be making this recipe. I have lots of fresh fruit I picked up at the Farmer's Market yesterday, plus a huge rhubarb plant in my garden, so there will be peach-cherry pie, strawberry-rhubarb pie, and probably some blueberry tarts and some rhubarb tarts. (I believe in going all-out when baking - might as well make more than you need and freeze the excess for later.)
"Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal." Albert Camus
"I want to remake the world; anything less is not worth the trouble." Karen Cushman
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| Re: Frelling Ratbags [message #18544 is a reply to message #18513 ] |
Fri, 24 July 2009 20:52 |
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Robin
Messages: 6002
Registered: September 2008
Location: England |
Senior Member
[Hellgoddess] |
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| Diane in MN wrote on Fri, 24 July 2009 04:39 |
Damn cancer. Good luck to your friend; I hope this is an eminently treatable situation. ::crosses fingers and lights candle::
********** Thank you. I've got so many candles going I light up the night sky. Cancer SUCKS.
But I want to say something utterly naive and puerile here about how can you love a critter and not put in the basic time to train it, if it’s the kind that needs training? [. . .] And basic companion-animal training just isn’t that hard. You just have to do it. And there’s nothing wrong with Mike but its lack.
Of course this isn't naive and puerile, it's sensible and adult and proactive, and (sorry, Pollyanna) that's why lots of people fail to do it.
*********** Yes. ARRRRRGH. And a lot of them live around here and gaily let their unguided missiles off lead.
And most of them are pretty lucky; their untrained dog may be a pest, but not a snappy one, or it's small enough that its bad behavior is "cute" and not threatening. Or they keep it outside behind a fence and don't worry about it. I agree with you that this is a depressing situation, but there is a bright side: better he go to a new home now, while he's young and more easily trainable, than stay where he's not getting what he needs and might end up in big trouble. You've probably thought of this already, but I'd suggest talking to his breeder for help in placing him.
************* The breeder is where I WANT to start if I can pry the phone # off Daisy and Roy, who appear to be going into General Denial. Let them go into General Denial AFTER they've told me what I need to know to get moving.
I think what it does is give me, for about five seconds about three nights out of four, the illusion of having real dogs, you know, the kind that think food is terrific, the kind you can clicker-train because they respond to treats.
As I understand it you don't have to use food to clicker-train; it's a lot easier if you have a food-motivated dog, but you can click and praise or pet or give a toy, too. But everything's easier if they care about treats.
************* I'm under the impression that they have to respond reliably to *something*, and they don't. They respond best to praise, and in that case, I'm sorry, but what's the point of the clicker?
Oh yes, and Pegasus the Cow has just taken another dive into the ravine
Bad Pegasus! BEHAVE!
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************** Sigh. Thank you . . .
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| Re: Frelling Ratbags [message #18555 is a reply to message #18542 ] |
Fri, 24 July 2009 21:49 |
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| Robin wrote on Fri, 24 July 2009 20:46 |
Eeep. Is *that* a Freudian slip. I meant mad as in crazy (I've now edited the entry to 'nuts') but the truth is . . . I AM mad as in angry. I'm very angry. [mmph] That's me putting a sock in it, before I say something I'll regret. :(
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Hehe. I figure you have the right to be angry. And nuts.
But yeah, I totally get biting your tongue. Mine has some teeth marks, too. :)
Smooshes!
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| Re: Frelling Ratbags [message #18568 is a reply to message #18544 ] |
Sat, 25 July 2009 02:28 |
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Diane in MN
Messages: 2730
Registered: October 2008
Location: Twin Cities, MN, USA |
Senior Member |
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| Robin wrote on Fri, 24 July 2009 19:52 |
************* I'm under the impression that they have to respond reliably to *something*, and they don't. They respond best to praise, and in that case, I'm sorry, but what's the point of the clicker?
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Yes . . . I don't clicker-train; it needs a lot of hands, and it's another thing you have to wean the dog from when you go into competition. But people use the clicker as a marker for the dog, like they would use YES! or GOOD JOB!, and I guess it's easier for them to time the click to the behavior than to time the praise word.
It's tough with dogs like sighthounds (and sighthound descendants, ha!) to get that consistent reliable response because they don't pay attention to you-only-you, they have the whole world to notice too. I have never succeeded in being the most interesting thing around to my dog. Have I told this story? When I was training Zinka, we were in a building separated from a county road by a parking lot. On the other side of the road was another parking lot, and then a small office building with a big window that fronted on the street. Zinka would get distracted by watching the people in the office building move around in front of the window. And I was the one who had the food.
"The point of books is to have way too many but to always feel you never have enough . . . " Louise Erdrich
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| Re: Frelling Ratbags [message #18576 is a reply to message #18566 ] |
Sat, 25 July 2009 06:59 |
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| Ithilien wrote on Sat, 25 July 2009 01:20 |
| Robin wrote on Fri, 24 July 2009 21:58 |
Sigh. Whimper. Think of the DOG, you know? It's the dog's LIFE.
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Oh, yes, I know. I have nightmares about being neglectful to animals. (Bizarrely, the last lot were lambs and piglets, which I've never had much to do with. And I was keeping them in DRAWERS!)
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I have the same sorts of dreams! But mostly about ferrets. I look away for a second, and like that, one is missing. YEEP! Jeff has nightmares about Kippy getting out of the house. (She's declawed -- not my decision, sniff! -- and wouldn't be able to protect herself.)
Some people have nightmares about their kids getting into trouble. I have nightmares about my pets. :P
Smooshes!
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| Re: Frelling Ratbags [message #18602 is a reply to message #18601 ] |
Sat, 25 July 2009 22:27 |
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Alannaeowyn
Messages: 46
Registered: October 2008
Location: Nebraska |
Member |
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Boy, is that familiar. Newborn baby bunnies all over the bottom of the cage.....a familiar enough occurrence, even when--somehow--it wasn't simply because I hadn't prepped the nesting box on time. Innumerable dreams along those lines, even now that I no longer have rabbits. And lambing problems, and I'm not there.....yeah. There's a lot of material for dreams about messing up when you've been responsible for helpless dependents since you were about seven--and responsibility is very much a learning process......
[Updated on: Sat, 25 July 2009 22:28]
Victim of a prolonged addiction fed by daily hits. Thanks, Robin.
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| Re: Frelling Ratbags [message #18614 is a reply to message #18568 ] |
Sun, 26 July 2009 07:43 |
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| Robin wrote on Fri, 24 July 2009 19:52 |
************* I'm under the impression that they have to respond reliably to *something*, and they don't. They respond best to praise, and in that case, I'm sorry, but what's the point of the clicker?
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Communication! Clickers cut through all that "blah blah blah Rover blah blah" which is what most dogs hear. (with thanks to that great dog cartoon )
| Diane in MN wrote on Sat, 25 July 2009 07:28 |
Yes . . . I don't clicker-train; it needs a lot of hands,
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Yes! I said this when I started riding horses, bell ringing and driving, but now I do them (mostly!)on auto pilot - even uncoordinated me LOL I find persistence works amazingly well, and I AM a determined so and so! (Ask Robin lol)
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...and it's another thing you have to wean the dog from when you go into competition.
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The clicker is amazing for teaching new behaviours, and for improving lapsed or high quality behaviours, and can be dispensed with once behaviours are learned or are at a sufficient standard. I transfer the sound to a "zzzzip!" and use that in the ring (when we won Best of Breed at Crufts with Elsa, and a few years before when we won Best Bitch in Breed at Crufts with Daisy. Daisy wouldn't show, and we only made her up to Champion by using clicker training to bark and bounce on command )
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...But people use the clicker as a marker for the dog, like they would use YES! or GOOD JOB!, and I guess it's easier for them to time the click to the behavior than to time the praise word.
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Nooooo! It's actually harder because the clicker is SO specific that you have to be accurate; with praise, even single words, they last much longer than a click, so the dog has to work out what you were praising - the greater the praise the woolier the effect if you are asking the dog to work out what it was doing. Praise will get you big gross behaviours, but for fine tuning clickers will do it every time.
It is also possible to choose which fine tuned behaviours you want and put them together, in any combination, and to change behaviours to smaller, bigger, off a different cue...
and for me the biggest bonus is that training is a game and that we are partners and my dogs think for themselves, but use that skill to try and please me - I trained dogs before clicker training but I never knew the exhilaration and partnership that I have now due to clicker training
And Robin will tell you that Mike couldn't have ignored me MORE when we first met, and is not AT ALL motivated by food, but I'm betting that by controlling the environment initially and then gradually increasing the level of distraction I would be able to train him with clickers.
With my bullies I have found the secret of training "untrainable" breeds is to be motivating, to prevent other motivations/bad habits developing, and to get in there early! b_twin_1 and I have been agreeing on this - weeks 4 to 8 are THE most important. I start training and playing with my puppies from birth and by 8 weeks they don't know that they're untrainable.
Mwahaha!
Someone says "pie" and we all go on alert, like meercats. "Pie? Where?" - Blackbear
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| Re: Frelling Ratbags [message #18651 is a reply to message #18614 ] |
Mon, 27 July 2009 00:42 |
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Diane in MN
Messages: 2730
Registered: October 2008
Location: Twin Cities, MN, USA |
Senior Member |
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| southdowner wrote on Sun, 26 July 2009 06:43 |
Nooooo! It's actually harder because the clicker is SO specific that you have to be accurate; with praise, even single words, they last much longer than a click, so the dog has to work out what you were praising - the greater the praise the woolier the effect if you are asking the dog to work out what it was doing. Praise will get you big gross behaviours, but for fine tuning clickers will do it every time. ... and for me the biggest bonus is that training is a game and that we are partners and my dogs think for themselves, but use that skill to try and please me - I trained dogs before clicker training but I never knew the exhilaration and partnership that I have now due to clicker training
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This is very interesting and does make sense. Although those of us who qualify for the Klutz Klub might have problems with the specificity aspect. Thanks for the correction!
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With my bullies I have found the secret of training "untrainable" breeds is to be motivating, to prevent other motivations/bad habits developing, and to get in there early! b_twin_1 and I have been agreeing on this - weeks 4 to 8 are THE most important. I start training and playing with my puppies from birth and by 8 weeks they don't know that they're untrainable.
Mwahaha!
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I'm glad you put "untrainable" in quotes because I don't think there are any "untrainable" breeds--it's just that some require different approaches. Dead right about the puppies--they start learning how to learn from the get-go, and it's so much harder for them and their eventual owners if they don't have that foundation.
"The point of books is to have way too many but to always feel you never have enough . . . " Louise Erdrich
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And there are times when even chocolate struggles to overcome the blegh. I'll send some virtual stuff any way. And light a candle.
