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| Mozak [message #12622] |
Sat, 07 March 2009 19:03  |
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Mozak
Smooshes!
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| Re: Mozak [message #12625 is a reply to message #12622 ] |
Sat, 07 March 2009 19:44  |
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Eee. The math makes my eyes glaze right over. But I totally get how notes can sound sad.
Brains are funny things. :)
Smooshes!
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| Re: Mozak [message #12627 is a reply to message #12622 ] |
Sat, 07 March 2009 20:18 |
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 Black Bear
Messages: 3216
Registered: September 2008
Location: Indianapolis, IN USA |
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Did I miss the link Peter's referring to? (Probably. Sigh.)
I've always found it odd that while I have reasonably good pitch, per se, I cannot for the life of me tell the difference between octaves if they are played on different instruments, due to the difference in tone. If you play middle C on your piano, and I play a C on my viola, and then my friend plays a C on her clarinet, I can tell you that they are all the same note (and could tell you if one of us was slightly out of tune) but I'd have utterly no clue whether they are all middle C, or the viola's is higher but the clarinet's lower, and so on... One reason I've utterly no clue what my vocal range is, though I've always presumed I'm an alto or a tenor. 
More guest posts from Peter, it's always lovely to hear from him! And the duelling footnotes were a nice touch.
"The time is always right to do what's right."--MLK Jr.
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| Re: Mozak [message #12628 is a reply to message #12622 ] |
Sat, 07 March 2009 20:36 |
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blondviolinist
Messages: 1070
Registered: October 2008
Location: Midwestern United States |
Senior Member |
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| Quote: |
He went on to say that the second note “made” the first note “sad.” Sad? He expected everyone to hear that, because he could.
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Hmm, I think Peter may win this round. I didn't see a link, if there was one, but I'm assuming that the musician in question was referring to a minor third, as I can't think of any other interval that's presupposed to be sad.
From what I understand of music and ethnomusicology, our Western (extremely Western) perception of the minor third as sad and the minor third as happy is a social construct. (And, one could argue, a social construct only about three or four hundred years old.) When Bela Bartok was doing his ethnomusicological research into the folk songs of Hungary and Romania, many of the happy or celebratory songs in those cultures were actually in what we call "minor" (or sad) modes, and many of the sad songs were in what we call "major" (or happy) modes. So not even all of Europe would agree that a minor third is sad, let alone the whole not-tone-deaf world.
"Purity of heart is to will one thing." Kirkegaard
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| Re: Mozak [message #12631 is a reply to message #12622 ] |
Sat, 07 March 2009 22:06 |
dances-with-needles
Messages: 38
Registered: February 2009
Location: Colorado, in the north |
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I understand about musical dyslexia due to having a rather intense case of writing dyslexia. The teachers didn't get it that I could read and learn just fine, and that I have a fuctional capeability with a pen in hand of two senences. After that all that comes out is gibberish. There was no keyhole in my brain marked handwriting
I can't begin to tell how liberating it was to put my hands on a keyboard and have my brain unlock.
So I can see that someone can have no keyhole in their brain for music to unlock.
My spouse is similarly musically inept. I grew up dancing, he has no sense of rhythm and can't tell waltz time from 4/4, from 5/4. (Now of course, he has no feet so dancing isn't going to happen anyway) he can't carry a tune in a bucket and classical music leaves him cold.
Carry on playing Robin, discuss the details with those of us that have a technical interest. Leave Peter to discuss math and physics with people like my brother the physicyst who makes gorgeous computer models to try and explain what is happening in the sun.
(He gave me one of the prettier models to mess with and I knitted him a vest with a computer model of a solar coronal mass ejection on the belly. Thus do artists respond to beauty.) 
Dances
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| Re: Mozak [message #12632 is a reply to message #12622 ] |
Sat, 07 March 2009 22:23 |
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shalea
Messages: 781
Registered: October 2008
Location: Raleigh, North Carolina, ... |
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Mental blocks are interesting. I have fairly good pitch, and hear enough of the tonal qualities of instruments to be able to identify fairly accurately what might be producing a particular line of melody in a song I like. However, my husband, who is VERY musically inclined (and has even done some composing on what was probably an early freeware version of Finale), has tried for years to teach me something so simple and basic as time signatures, and I Just Don't Get It. I understand the theory, get on very well with numbers (up to and including calculus), but when faced with a real song with several instruments doing different, complicated things, I can do no better than guessing at what the time signature might be. It's like the hearing part of my brain just isn't communicating well with the math & theory part.
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| Re: Mozak [message #12634 is a reply to message #12622 ] |
Sat, 07 March 2009 23:00 |
skating librarian
Messages: 571
Registered: October 2008
Location: Vermont |
Senior Member |
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Cool vest, I'd never think along those lines ...
Thank you Peter for giving me a more expansive way to think about my difficulties with things musical. I would describe myself as being dyslexic when trying to read music ... it's a foreign language and I can't keep track of all the things the marks on the paper are trying to tell me. I also seem to lack the ability to deal with the staff except by counting lines (or spaces) and they never connect with a sound.
I seem to have a similar problem with alphabets other than the one I learned at mother's knee. Greek was a total disaster. Linking those symbols (which thanks to science and math classes one knew by name) never resolved themselves into something I could pronounce.
French was okay, so was German, even sometimes in the "old" printing style. I can even guess my way through a fair amount of written Swedish. But Greek left me in tears, with an aching head.
Robin is obviously passionate about music, and I am glad that you seem to have reached a compromise.
"Winning a war is like winning an earthquake" Jeanette Rankin
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| Re: Mozak [message #12639 is a reply to message #12622 ] |
Sun, 08 March 2009 00:57 |
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Diane in MN
Messages: 2732
Registered: October 2008
Location: Twin Cities, MN, USA |
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I think Peter's right about the amousiac spectrum. My husband can't carry a tune and will claim that he is tone deaf, but he likes folk music, fifties and sixties pop and rock, and musicals. Obviously he can discriminate amongst various musical styles. What interests me is that he says he really likes only songs, with lyrics in English so he can understand what's being sung; and he's not a verbally-oriented person, he's a numbers guy (and would have absolutely appreciated Peter's math analogy). If I gave him the text of, say, Paint Your Wagon, he wouldn't read it, but he listens to the recording, so the music must be an important part of the experience.
I do not even ATTEMPT to take him to the opera with me. 
"The point of books is to have way too many but to always feel you never have enough . . . " Louise Erdrich
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| Re: Mozak [message #12640 is a reply to message #12622 ] |
Sun, 08 March 2009 09:39 |
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Mrs Redboots
Messages: 943
Registered: October 2008
Location: London, UK |
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THANK YOU PETER!!!!!
At last someone has described me to myself - and I know from other posts already that I am Not Alone.
I was told I was tone-deaf when growing up, and would agree that I am not very musical. But I am not tone-deaf - it was just that nobody ever explained that singing in tune doesn't just happen, for most of us, you need to learn how! And because they thought I was tone-deaf, they didn't bother to explain, nor to try to train my ear....
For me, the "keyhole" was the guitar. I play extraordinarily badly, but as I'm sure you all know, the guitar is a very easy instrument to play badly. But it did help me to discover how music "worked", and, eventually, to be able to sing in tune more often than not.
Husband, too, has an iffy sense of whether or not he's in tune, although these days he more often is than isn't. But he insists he has no sense of rhythm, and refuses to dance, except on ice, when he won't stop. I point out to him fairly forcefully, fairly often, that he can sing in time, so why can't he dance in time?
And my joke is that for the first twenty years of our marriage I couldn't get him on to a dance floor - these days, I can't get him off, as long as that floor is made of ice!
(Whoops, some people spot typos before they press "Submit" not just as they press it!)
[Updated on: Sun, 08 March 2009 09:40]
Mrs Redboots
I love my computer because my friends live in it!
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| Re: Mozak [message #12643 is a reply to message #12622 ] |
Sun, 08 March 2009 14:42 |
Jeanne Marie
Messages: 320
Registered: October 2008
Location: Kansas City |
Senior Member |
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As the original provider-of-the-link, I thought I'd add some thoughts, with the caveat that I stayed up too late last night, got up too early this morning, and kept waking up in between, so not all synapses are firing. Apologies in advance...
Here's the link, for those who'd like to check it out:
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/benjamin_zander_on_music_ and_passion.html
It is good for me to hear what non-musical people think and experience in terms of amousia (Peter and others on the forum who've commented thus far). Since I've been vocally oriented from an early age, I don't actually know what it is like to not make aural musical distinctions easily. But, I have done a fair bit of teaching, and a lot of that teaching has been with middle-aged people who were informed (often by a music teacher or other individual with authority) when they were in junior high that they were "tone deaf." Telling a junior high kid that they are tone deaf is, in my opinion, just as bad a telling a kid with dyslexia that they are stupid.
I just read a comment (sorry, don't remember who) that noted that aural discrimination is a learned skill - and, in my experience, this is true. I have taught individuals, who previously labeled themselves as "tone deaf," to hear the difference between pitches. I've taught them how to be able to tell when they are or are not singing the same thing as I am, by demonstrating what matching pitch sounds and feels like, and by talking about frequency and sound waves and such. These individuals are not planning on signing on with the Met any time soon, but the more they practice and work on aural discrimination skills, the better they get.
I think the reason this is such a passion of mine is because I've seen so many people who are wounded by the careless application of the label "tone deaf." (in the same way that others are wounded by the application of the label "stupid" if they are dyslexic). I believe deeply that everyone has the right to enjoy musical expression to whatever level they can and desire to, but I've seen so many people who accept the label of "tone deaf" and therefore avoid participating in any kind of musical (usually singing) activity - such as singing Happy Birthday to the office secretary. I've seen so many people who want to appreciate music via participation but refuse to because they've been told they can't - they aren't good enough, they are tone deaf, whatever. Often, it's music teachers themselves who've been at fault in those situations, either because they had a bad day, or they didn't want to spend the extra time with someone, or were just perfectionist elitists, who knows. A few years ago, I was working with someone who had been told he was tone deaf in 8th grade, and so he didn't open his mouth to sing anything for 15 years. Despite the fact that he loves music, and whistles with perfect pitch. He isn't, in fact, tone deaf, but he had accepted that label because someone with authority applied it to him at a vulnerable age.
I'm absolutely willing to concede the existence of amousia. But, like dyslexia, I think there are ways to work around it, and still participate in and enjoy music. I never want to wound people by carelessly and needlessly applying a label to them that will keep them from enjoying music.
And, OK, I'll grant that the speaker's use of "sad" in his musical example is pretty sad. Even when I was first watching it, I cringed a bit. Not only too simplistic, but as another forum-er noted, ethnomusicologically it's a bogus determination.
I'm interested to read more comments on this! Thanks, Peter, for opening the conversation, and to everyone else for sharing!
Smiles,
Jeanne Marie
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| Re: Mozak [message #12644 is a reply to message #12622 ] |
Sun, 08 March 2009 15:34 |
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AJLR
Messages: 2566
Registered: September 2008
Location: England, UK |
Senior Member
[Moderator] |
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| Quote: |
He went on to say that the second note “made” the first note “sad.” Sad? He expected everyone to hear that, because he could.
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My music teacher emphasises that 'sad' is a westernised perception of particular music/notes and almost purely cultural, as blondviolinist mentions above. I wonder how that came about, and why.
I have a bad musical memory - although I would doubt if that's amousiac (what a lovely word), just musical illiteracy. Having had no 'learning music' episodes in my life until two years ago, since school umpty-thousand years ago, I find that what I remember being told then and what I'm learning now bear little resemblance. I have learnt that my music teacher (when I was 13) was wrong when she told me it was no use wanting/trying to play the piano because my hands were too small - OK, I have to stretch to reach an octave but it's worth doing!
Very interesting post, Peter and Robin, and I look forward to reading more in due course.
"Never let a computer know you're in a hurry."
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| Re: Mozak [message #12646 is a reply to message #12622 ] |
Sun, 08 March 2009 17:02 |
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This is a really interesting post!
I call myself tone deaf, in that I cannot sing in tune (I sound like a cat with its tail on fire to tell the truth)
But I hear music quite well - one thing I have always been able to hear is the timing and rhythym - which when you are a belly dancer and you dance to middle eastern beats -none of which are 4/4 (6/8 I think is the most common one but there are lots of variations) its vital to have the timing correct.
And I hear the emotion in the music as well (which I hadnt really thought about until Peter's post) or maybe I am just imagining it?
And its interesting because I had noticed some people in my bellydance class who clearly had absolutely *no* sense of the timing and rhythym in the music, and it must have made learning to dance extra difficult. I guess they just grind away at it and follow along after everyone else (in the same way I learn to read and play music)
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| Re: Mozak [message #12700 is a reply to message #12643 ] |
Mon, 09 March 2009 21:33 |
kfoster2047
Messages: 138
Registered: January 2009
Location: Charlotte, NC |
Senior Member |
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I just read a comment (sorry, don't remember who) that noted that aural discrimination is a learned skill - and, in my experience, this is true. I have taught individuals, who previously labeled themselves as "tone deaf," to hear the difference between pitches. I've taught them how to be able to tell when they are or are not singing the same thing as I am, by demonstrating what matching pitch sounds and feels like, and by talking about frequency and sound waves and such. These individuals are not planning on signing on with the Met any time soon, but the more they practice and work on aural discrimination skills, the better they get.
This is very encouraging! I know I don't sing well but I have always had a desire to learn - if I could just get over my refusal to sing in front of anyone else. I would like to believe that (Met not withstanding) I could get better.
I think the reason this is such a passion of mine is because I've seen so many people who are wounded by the careless application of the label "tone deaf." (in the same way that others are wounded by the application of the label "stupid" if they are dyslexic). I believe deeply that everyone has the right to enjoy musical expression to whatever level they can and desire to, but I've seen so many people who accept the label of "tone deaf" and therefore avoid participating in any kind of musical (usually singing) activity - such as singing Happy Birthday to the office secretary. I've seen so many people who want to appreciate music via participation but refuse to because they've been told they can't - they aren't good enough, they are tone deaf, whatever.
This is so true. And in my case it wasn't even a music teacher but a very authoritative fourth grader, who told me quite definitely that I couldn't sing. I haven't sang in public since. But I love to sing and I sing all the time when people, other than my husband aren't around. My husband, who actually has a reasonable ear, says that I can in fact sing (sometimes). Unfortunately, I'm not sure what it takes to make that more than sometimes. Can I come to Kansas and take lessons?
Karen
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| Re: Mozak [message #12707 is a reply to message #12700 ] |
Tue, 10 March 2009 05:11 |
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Very interesting topic here. When I was a child I could hear tone well enough to hear that I wasn’t singing in tune. So I stopped singing. A few years ago I realized that I didn’t need a tuner anymore when I tuned my harp. I could do it almost all by ear after getting a few key strings on magic 440 Hz.
Soon after I saw an ad for voice lessons, the first one free. I managed to fit in three before time conflicts made it impossible. However those three opened up a whole new world for me. While I am not any great artist, I can sing in groups now.
For those of you who have always wanted to sing, it’s very possible - with a good teacher.
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| Re: Mozak [message #12711 is a reply to message #12700 ] |
Tue, 10 March 2009 10:52 |
Jeanne Marie
Messages: 320
Registered: October 2008
Location: Kansas City |
Senior Member |
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| kfoster2047 wrote on Mon, 09 March 2009 20:33 |
Can I come to Kansas and take lessons?
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YES, you may come to Kansas (well, Missouri) and take lessons! You are welcome any time, just call ahead!
Seriously, you might check into a local college - you might be able to find a student who is good at this kind of thing, and get a few lessons cheaply. Talk with the vocal professors, see what the student crop is like. You could also check with churches in your area. If you can find one with a healthy music program, you might check with the director about voice lessons.
In the meantime check out my podcast...it's designed for Catholic deacons, but there are introductory sessions on matching pitch and breathing which you might find helpful. (This link goes to the earliest posts, back in June 2008, scroll down to the bottom of the page for the Matching Pitch session)
http://thesingingdeacon.podbean.com/2008/07/
Hope this helps! Let me know!
Smiles,
Jeanne Marie
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| Re: Mozak [message #12782 is a reply to message #12711 ] |
Wed, 11 March 2009 06:23 |
kfoster2047
Messages: 138
Registered: January 2009
Location: Charlotte, NC |
Senior Member |
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| Jeanne Marie wrote on Tue, 10 March 2009 10:52 |
YES, you may come to Kansas (well, Missouri) and take lessons! You are welcome any time, just call ahead!
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I'll check into flights immediately!
I have thought about the local college option - my husband even teaches at one with a good music school, although he is in the computer science department. It just means that I would actually have to sing in front of someone, and if I hit the wrong someone, that might be the last time ever!
Thank you for the podcast link - you explain things very clearly. We are leaving for vacation today but I will spend some more time with these when I get back.
And above all, thank you for the encouragement.
Karen
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| Re: Mozak [message #12791 is a reply to message #12782 ] |
Wed, 11 March 2009 11:02 |
Jeanne Marie
Messages: 320
Registered: October 2008
Location: Kansas City |
Senior Member |
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| kfoster2047 wrote on Wed, 11 March 2009 05:23 |
It just means that I would actually have to sing in front of someone, and if I hit the wrong someone, that might be the last time ever!
And above all, thank you for the encouragement.
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Finding the right teacher is the key. I'd talk extensively with the music dept folks before singing for them. Be forthright and tell them how intimidated you are about singing, and that you'd like to take lessons, but... You'll be able to tell if the teacher you're talking with is going to be sympathetic to that situation or not. If you can find someone in the music education dept, they are likely to be pre-disposed to be not only good teachers but interested in bringing singing to the masses, the way I am!
And, you are welcome! I am HAPPY to provide as much encouragement as needed! If you decide you want to do some lessons via telephone when you get back in town, you are welcome to call me up! Send me a comment via my website's contact link, and we can trade phone numbers.
http://jeannemariekohr.com/
Smiles,
Jeanne Marie
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