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| Part Two, as promised [message #41141] |
Fri, 08 April 2011 19:34  |
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 Black Bear
Messages: 3239
Registered: September 2008
Location: Indianapolis, IN USA |
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Promise fulfilled!
"The time is always right to do what's right."--MLK Jr.
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| Re: Part Two, as promised [message #41146 is a reply to message #41144 ] |
Fri, 08 April 2011 20:29  |
EMoon
Messages: 669
Registered: March 2009 |
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Love Scrabble, hate Boggle. We used to play Scrabble often with friends (slow games...two of us would play chess on the side, and two of us would work on a puzzle on the side, and the real goal was to get as many interesting words as possible as well spread across the board as possible. We used the Compact OED--this was back when I could take my glasses off, stick my nose on the page, and read it easily.) But then they started playing Boggle, which is fast and I'm not, and there's no art to it (as in making the Scrabble board look symmetrical or not.) From there they went to bridge. Alas.
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| Re: Part Two, as promised [message #41147 is a reply to message #41141 ] |
Fri, 08 April 2011 20:38 |
EMoon
Messages: 669
Registered: March 2009 |
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On readers who complain because it's not the book they wanted: yes. On the ones who don't read the book you wrote but the one they assume you wrote: yes. On there being no book that's perfect for everyone: YES!!! There's a great heaping boatload of entitlement going around, and as a result some (notice: not accusing all, or even most) readers act as if every writer owed them The Perfect Book every single time.
To which I'm always tempted to say (and have sometimes said) "Go write your own book. It will be exactly what you want." (With an evil smirk in my hidden depths because if they try it, they will find out just how hard it is.) I've also gently suggested that reading it from the library first will prevent the feeling that they've wasted money. (I bought three books recently that turned out to be wasted money, but for propping up the publishing companies. One novel, two non-fiction that didn't live up to their billing. OTOH I also bought several books that were better than hoped for. I am not writing the authors of the first three to tell them I don't like their books. They will go down to the second-hand bookstore, to be put out where someone may pounce on them with great glee.)
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| Re: Part Two, as promised [message #41149 is a reply to message #41141 ] |
Fri, 08 April 2011 21:59 |
hearthrose
Messages: 27
Registered: September 2009
Location: SoCal |
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I figured out a while back that I identify with protagonists for private - frequently subconscious - reasons of my own, and that those reasons change with time. This is why my shelf of tattered paperbacks changes contents with time - some things I just don't click with. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the heroine's measurements, hair color, or ability to sew a straight seam.
At any rate, very few books are written about plump housewives with an excess of cleavage.
Of the various reasons that things click, usually it's because the heroine/hero is sorting through problems in the backstory that are similar to my own problems. As an example, I'm quite addicted to the Alpha/Omega series of books because the heroine is suddenly mated to a very dominant man - and *I* happen to be married to a very dominant man.
Similarly, sometimes I evict books that I'm otherwise quite fond of because they take me to a bad emotional place - because of stuff going on in my subconscious, not things going on in the book itself.
None of that is a) the author's fault or b) under the author's control.
People really do say the oddest things. Now, if I could wave my magic wand, I would enable all my favorite authors to write a book - a very good book - every month. And still have spare time to putter in the garden and spend time with their loved ones.
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| Re: Part Two, as promised [message #41153 is a reply to message #41149 ] |
Fri, 08 April 2011 23:58 |
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 blondviolinist
Messages: 1076
Registered: October 2008
Location: Midwestern United States |
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| hearthrose wrote on Fri, 08 April 2011 21:59 |
I figured out a while back that I identify with protagonists for private - frequently subconscious - reasons of my own, and that those reasons change with time.
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Yes, I know what you mean. I recently read a book and instantly identified with the protagonist, because of her close relationship to her grandfather. I ended up loving the whole book. Another friend read the same book, and reacted with an "eh, pretty good." (Thankfully, I read her reaction *after* I read the book, or my perceptions might have been different.)
On a different topic...
Oh, how I loathe playing Scrabble! I have a fabulous vocabulary that deserts me completely anytime I am forced to play word games. I'm next to useless with crossword puzzles for the same reason. If you ask me for a particular word, it is gone from my head, and it will not be back until next Tuesday. (I'm also highly competitive, so my dislike of Scrabble is purely personal. I know it's a wonderful game that entertains thousands of people. Just *please* don't ask me to play it. I will hide under my knitting.)
"Purity of heart is to will one thing." Kirkegaard
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| Re: Part Two, as promised [message #41155 is a reply to message #41153 ] |
Sat, 09 April 2011 00:20 |
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anne_d
Messages: 217
Registered: October 2008
Location: Orange County, California |
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Now that I think about it - your heroines are what they are because that's who they have to be, beautiful or not. If it's a good story, it doesn't make a difference to me how the lead character looks (exceptions for necessity of story, of course).
Also, I have to say that Deerskin is not a comfortable read - for one thing, I always want to go Dark!Willow/vengeance demon all over her father (as in, flay him a la Warren, and that's just a start) - but it is a comforting read, and one I just need sometimes.
Thank you for writing these wonderful stories, Robin. I don't say that as much as I should, and I just wanted to say it again.
"The creative urge can come out in any form: in embroidery, in... cooking, in painting, drawing and sculpture, in composing music, as well as in writing books and stories... the artist's inner satisfaction was probably much the same." ~ Agatha Christie
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| Re: Part Two, as promised [message #41161 is a reply to message #41153 ] |
Sat, 09 April 2011 03:33 |
b_twin_1
Messages: 2620
Registered: September 2008
Location: Victoria, Australia |
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| blondviolinist wrote on Fri, 08 April 2011 23:58 |
Oh, how I loathe playing Scrabble! I have a fabulous vocabulary that deserts me completely anytime I am forced to play word games. I'm next to useless with crossword puzzles for the same reason. If you ask me for a particular word, it is gone from my head, and it will not be back until next Tuesday.
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Come over and play with my friend and I... we play for word skill rather than winning per se.
Frex:
Me "I think I'll do this word."
Friend "Is that the best you can do? Surely you can do better. Here's the dictionary."
Me "Oh. Hmmmmm. Yeah. Oh! If I do this then I can get a 7-letter word on a Triple Word Score!"
Friend "Excellent." (And will then score 20 points better than me on the next word.)
*giggle*
PS. Bring the knitting too. Our games take a while. And involve the eating of chocolate.
I've got a plan so cunning you could put a tail on it and call it a weasel ~ Blackadder
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| Re: Part Two, as promised [message #41162 is a reply to message #41141 ] |
Sat, 09 April 2011 03:53 |
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white_roses
Messages: 31
Registered: January 2011
Location: Western Nebraska |
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When it comes to associating with characters, Robin's folk are delightful to associate with. They do it so naturally! Harry will always have a soft spot with me, though: when I first met her, I had long hair--while not anywhere near ankle-length--that fought any kind of restraint with a vengeance*, and I felt very much at odds with the society I was attempting to grow in. Aerin fit in as a good friend as well: a horse helped me, too.
I’m not listening, you know. I only listen to the story. I can only listen to the story.
Which is just how it should be. The readers are wrong, as was stated. Readers only heard of Sunshine and Mirasol and the club because they bothered Robin first. Who are we to say how they ought to behave?
I wanted to grow up to be Harry or Aerin or Cecily or Rosie or Sunshine or Mirasol or Sylvi. Life, that freller, is disappointing.
Yes. Yessssssss. When I find Diana's portal to a parallel magical dimension, I'll let everyone know.
*I would braid it, and then I'd end up sitting on the braid if I didn't tie it up or pay attention. And the curly wispy short bits rebel at the slightest excuse.
"I feel the best way to know God is to love many things." --Van Gogh
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| Re: Part Two, as promised [message #41163 is a reply to message #41141 ] |
Sat, 09 April 2011 04:44 |
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Diane in MN
Messages: 2756
Registered: October 2008
Location: Twin Cities, MN, USA |
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It amazes me the permission some people give themselves to blame and be abusive.
What amazes me is how many of these people apparently take it personally if a book, or some aspect of a book, goes in a direction they don't expect or like. And then feel that it is their right to blast the writer, as if the writer had screwed up their order. If people want to read only what's in their own heads, Emoon is right, they should write those books themselves so they'd be sure to get what they want. Taking an all-about-me attitude out into the world, whether it's the one we all live in or the ones we visit in books, is likely to lead to disappointment.
"The point of books is to have way too many but to always feel you never have enough . . . " Louise Erdrich
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| Re: Part Two, as promised [message #41175 is a reply to message #41141 ] |
Sat, 09 April 2011 10:36 |
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equus_peduus
Messages: 437
Registered: September 2009
Location: France |
Senior Member |
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Despite not being a native English speaker, my mother is the best Scrabble player in my family. I'm not quite sure how this works.
As for books... the book is the book. I might come away with the wrong impression of something (e.g., Cecily's height) but that's more likely to be my fault than the book's fault or the author's fault. It occasionally amazes me how, on the fourth or eighth or seventeenth reading of a particular book, I suddenly notice a detail that *changes everything* in how I thought of the book (or sometimes, just one scene), and wonder how I missed that detail before. It's one of the reasons I like rereading books - the good ones, I'll notice something new almost every time (though most of the time they're insignificant details).
And there are authors whose books I generally very much enjoy, but there are individual books in their bibliography that I don't - for example there is a series where book one is delightful, but every time I try to read book two, I get bogged down somehow, and despite knowing that the story is likely to be very entertaining, something about the book itself won't let me get past the first few chapters. It's actually quite annoying, because I've read almost everything else this author has written, except this one series. It's not that I don't like the characters, or the world, or the type of story... but for some reason I can't read the book (I even bought it to make it easier on myself). But I'm not going to write the author and tell them that they wrote the wrong book and they need to do it over again! Lots of other people love that series, and I will just have to periodically try again until I have succeeded in out-stubborning the book (and hopefully once it lets me past that, it won't fight me on the rest of the series...). I doubt it'll ever be one of my favorites, but I really really want to read and like it...
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| Re: Part Two, as promised [message #41192 is a reply to message #41190 ] |
Sat, 09 April 2011 18:23 |
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| Inkwell wrote on Sat, 09 April 2011 23:06 |
A related trend I've noticed in reader reviews of novels is the apparent necessity to *like* the protagonist, or the novel's no good. Wha?? Maybe I'm being harsh, but to me it seems a puerile and simplistic response to reading fiction.
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Not necessarily the protagonist, but I am finding it increasingly desirable to have at least someone in any given book that I like and with whom I sympathise, or else I end up failing to give a pair of f˝tid dingo's kidneys† what happens to any of them and give up and find another book.
This does not necessarily mean that it is not a good book, merely that I do not inhabit the target demographic: most likely another reader would love it, but I cannot.
† I assume that most readers here would recognise the origin of this euphemism and—if necessary—can apply a substitute of suitable pungency; some of those books hit the wall fairly hard.
Phil
My friends say I have CDO…
which is like OCD but with the initials in proper alphabetical order…
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| Re: Part Two, as promised [message #41199 is a reply to message #41192 ] |
Sat, 09 April 2011 19:49 |
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white_roses
Messages: 31
Registered: January 2011
Location: Western Nebraska |
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| NotACat wrote on Sat, 09 April 2011 18:23 |
| Inkwell wrote on Sat, 09 April 2011 23:06 |
A related trend I've noticed in reader reviews of novels is the apparent necessity to *like* the protagonist, or the novel's no good. Wha?? Maybe I'm being harsh, but to me it seems a puerile and simplistic response to reading fiction.
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Not necessarily the protagonist, but I am finding it increasingly desirable to have at least someone in any given book that I like and with whom I sympathise, or else I end up failing to give a pair of f˝tid dingo's kidneys† what happens to any of them and give up and find another book.
This does not necessarily mean that it is not a good book, merely that I do not inhabit the target demographic: most likely another reader would love it, but I cannot.
† I assume that most readers here would recognise the origin of this euphemism and—if necessary—can apply a substitute of suitable pungency; some of those books hit the wall fairly hard.
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People need to realize that there are going to be protagonists they don't like in this world just as there are human beings they don't like. You don't write parents saying, "Why did you not drown your child at birth?" because you don't like the person in question. In the same way, you shouldn't write authors with nasty comments about the characters. Besides, just because I don't like someone doesn't mean he or she has no friends. There are other people out there who probably offer total admiration.
I wish this blog had an "I agree! :)" button. 
[Updated on: Sat, 09 April 2011 19:50]
"I feel the best way to know God is to love many things." --Van Gogh
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| Re: Part Two, as promised [message #41200 is a reply to message #41141 ] |
Sat, 09 April 2011 19:52 |
foroyar
Messages: 4
Registered: March 2011
Location: UNITED KINGDOM |
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It's such a shame people aren't as receptive to "Deerskin", because it's honestly my favourite McKinley book. I actually didn't find it dark at all* but I loved the care and balance that's maintained about such sensitive subject matter - and in my opinion, Lissar never comes across as a victim or a weak character. In lots of ways I think she's stronger than any of the other girls Robin writes about. I just think it's sad that people don't seem to respond to Lissar's struggle or come away with the idea that it's depressing because everything doesn't get wrapped up or tied off. (SPOILER) I think the magic of the ending is that you have to believe in Lissar's ability to heal (because she's come so far and done so much for herself) and that she will allow Ossin to help her love herself (as well as him) because that's where she'll find real healing.
*sure, there are moments where you have to grit your teeth but....
http://boilingsnowforwater.blogspot.com/
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| Re: Part Two, as promised [message #41202 is a reply to message #41155 ] |
Sat, 09 April 2011 21:14 |
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Jabenami
Messages: 12
Registered: October 2010
Location: New York |
Junior Member |
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| anne_d wrote on Sat, 09 April 2011 00:20Also, I have to say that [i |
Deerskin[/i] is not a comfortable read - for one thing, I always want to go Dark!Willow/vengeance demon all over her father (as in, flay him a la Warren, and that's just a start) - but it is a comforting read, and one I just need sometimes..
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I think you're right about Deerskin being comforting, rather than comfortable, though I find the why of that fact difficult to lay hold of. I think it somehow sits on the bridge between the realm of the fairy tale and the realm of the real world, connecting the former to the latter rather than reflecting reality in the fairy tale. I keep thinking of G. K. Chesterton's line about the fairy tale teaching children not that the dragon exists, but that the dragon can be beaten. Deerskin has a similar power, at least in my view, of being a story that validates our feelings that there is bad and evil in this world - not just as metaphor, but sometimes in people too - but that there is hope and healing and even if the past cannot be changed, the future can be won.
And I was so not planning on trying to do justice to why I found Deerskin to be a deeply important book.
Anyway, I can't help laughing at the idea that I, as reader, am entitled to the exact book I want to read from an author every time. And this is despite having read at least one book by all of my favorite authors which I did not like and finishing it feeling kinda disappointed, because I so wanted to like everything they ever did. I would be almost more worried if I liked everything a reasonably prolific author wrote, because it meant either s/he never did anything new or s/he shared my opinions exactly and I'd like to hope that I am, if nothing else, unique. I adore Jane Austen and yet cannot bear Mansfield Park, for example. But that's not Austen's problem (given that she probably doesn't care at this point) and for me to complain as if I deserved a different book would be silly. I'm entitled to dislike it, avoid rereading it like the plague and leave it out of every undergrad and grad paper I ever write. I am not entitled to demand retribution because I wanted a different book.
The funniest thing is, of course, reading letters people sent during the 19th century, telling their favorite authors what they were doing wrong. It's just that now authors are even easier to reach and no longer need to resort to their prefaces and periodicals to reply.
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| Re: Part Two, as promised [message #41216 is a reply to message #41214 ] |
Sun, 10 April 2011 14:27 |
CathyR
Messages: 577
Registered: July 2009
Location: NW England |
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| Inkwell wrote on Sun, 10 April 2011 15:34 |
Well like I said, maybe I'm being harsh, but I hold to my opinion. I may find Macbeth, for instance, or King Lear - especially Lear - pretty loathsome characters, but I'm eager to find out what happens to them, as well as to the supporting cast of characters around them.
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I've never read Macbeth - but next month I am going to see David Morrissey and Jemma Redgrave in the last show of the Macbeth season at the Everyman in Liverpool. By happy fortune, we have centre seats, 3 rows from the front. Can't wait!!  Really looking forward to broadening my education in this regard.
Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly.
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| Jumping on the Deerskin train... [message #41223 is a reply to message #41141 ] |
Sun, 10 April 2011 20:23 |
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elzebrook
Messages: 35
Registered: September 2010 |
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I have this list entitled The Books That Saved My Life. If I had to pick one book from this list which I credit with doing the most, it's Deerskin. It is a comforting read. It's also (to me) a very hopeful one. What I took from Deerskin was something like this:
Yes, truly terrible things happen. They should not happen, not to anyone EVER, but it is part of life that they do happen, and ignoring those things does not make them better or go away (frankly, it makes them worse).
At the same time, those terrible things which happened in your life do not have to be your life. You may feel absolutely shattered, and you may have every right to feel shattered, but you can heal. And also, you do not have to do it alone, there is no shame in accepting help (from your dogs, from a goddess, from an unhandsome prince, from a stable girl, from a therapist, whatever).
I think Deerskin is a really important book (although I probably count as very biased) for exactly the reasons so many people hate it. It addresses really uncomfortable topics, topics we as a culture (possibly as a species) like to pretend don't exist--not just rape, but stuff like severely dysfunctional families and the betrayal and destruction of childhood and the effects of severe trauma on the individual. These sorts of things need to be recognized before they can be dealt with, but not many people have the courage to write or speak about them, or bring them into the public awareness at all.
As for the people who call Lissar "ruined"...I invite those people to go to two of my best friends and my room mate and tell those women that they are "ruined" and see what happens...
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| Re: Part Two, as promised [message #41234 is a reply to message #41141 ] |
Mon, 11 April 2011 05:13 |
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Mrs Redboots
Messages: 949
Registered: October 2008
Location: London, UK |
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Deerskin was the first of Robin's books I ever read, after which I combed the bookshops for more, more, more!
One thing I hate is when the cover illustrations don't match your mental image of the characters; most recently, the UK edition of Emoon's latest, Kings of the North; I am not sure who the cover character is meant to be, but he certainly isn't any of the people in the book, as far as I can tell!
Mrs Redboots
I love my computer because my friends live in it!
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| Re: Part Two, as promised [message #41277 is a reply to message #41141 ] |
Tue, 12 April 2011 17:40 |
BurgandyIce
Messages: 73
Registered: May 2010
Location: Damascus |
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It is SOOOO fun to get Robin's perspective of the characters... I'm so glad you wrote about them!! And I couldn't wait to read everyone's responses, too, because there is something really amazing in loving a book and loving the characters in a book and finding other people who think the same way. It just is.
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