Home » Discussion Forums » Blog Post Discussion » Heroine size
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| Re: Heroine size [message #40947 is a reply to message #40946 ] |
Sun, 03 April 2011 20:33   |
Esther S. Bernstein
Messages: 12
Registered: May 2010
Location: Brooklyn, NY |
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I'm surprised to even see that question about your heroines being short, because to me, Harry is THE Robin McKinley heroine, and she is definitely far from short! In fact, I thought is was refreshing to read about short Sylvi, and I felt like she's the most feminine of your heroines so far. Still a strong, independent girl, but I do like that she's not as tomboyish as most of the others.
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Esther S. Bernstein
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| Re: Heroine size [message #40955 is a reply to message #40946 ] |
Sun, 03 April 2011 22:38 |
EMoon
Messages: 664
Registered: March 2009 |
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Characters need to be the size they are, whatever that is (and I'm of the "not too much description please" persuasion. But readers vary widely in what they want/like/will stand for in physical description (I've had people ask plaintively why there's not more, much more.)
For me, a character's physical details matter only to the extent they matter to the character...or to a character interacting with that character. (I once knew a young woman so beautiful she literally stopped all conversation in a room when she walked in for weeks before people got used to having her around. That very rare gorgeous bone structure, carried through into coloring and body and way of moving. You could not have used her as a character without showing her effect on people--and her effect on people had naturally affected her...her disbelief that people could relate to her except as "that beauty." She was also brilliant and talented, but what people saw was the bones, the skin, the hair, the eyes, the grace.)
So of course I stuck her in a book, forty years after I first saw her (and haven't seen her since)...not an exact replica, but the effect. And gave her a cousin who is shorter, younger, not beautiful, with different coloration, and combines the mix of envy and determination not to be like "that idiot Stella." Who isn't an idiot, but spent her formative years being "the beauty" until life whacked her on the shins.
"I don’t think romance is ever a plot. It’s something happening while the plot is thundering ahead elsewhere." Agreed...it's more interesting for me if any romance is what happens while the characters are dealing with other stuff of--dare I say greater?--importance.
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| Re: Heroine size [message #40956 is a reply to message #40946 ] |
Sun, 03 April 2011 22:51 |
 Catlady
Messages: 230
Registered: December 2008
Location: Aurora, Colorado |
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That's funny... I've been picturing Jake as Latino. But I did get that he wasn't all white.
And personally, I really like that we only get the physical characteristics that are important to the character. I have such a hard time in books when I have a very clear and completely wrong image of a character in my head, and then a hundred pages in it mentions her blonde hair, and I think, "Blonde?? I thought Beelzebubba was a redhead!" Or my personal favorite, when the picture of the character on the front cover DOESN'T MATCH the description. (ELLA ENCHANTED, for example, speaking of gangly heroines, who has brown hair and tan skin on the front and is described as having black hair and china white skin almost immediately within the pages. The only blemish on an otherwise pretty much perfect story.)(With the understanding, of course, that the person who picked the front cover may or may not have read the book.)
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| Re: Heroine size [message #40957 is a reply to message #40956 ] |
Sun, 03 April 2011 23:03 |
jjmcgaffey
Messages: 53
Registered: September 2010
Location: Alameda, CA |
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I was just reading a new book, Midnight Riot by Ben Aaronovich. It's a weird book in a lot of ways (urban fantasy/apprentice wizard - in modern London and the apprentice is a young cop). He's part black - and the way the author got that fact expressed was lovely. Mostly the thoughts of a London cop dealing with prejudice...I don't really know what he physically looks like, but his mixed-race heritage definitely shows (as at one point he's worried about being assigned undercover on the black gangs (that's not the words he uses, I forget what - saying it that way makes me think of steamships)). I do expect descriptions and mostly enjoy them (the problem with romance descriptions is that everyone who's described is perfect! Bleah!), so I found Midnight Riot a little odd because of the lack of descriptions. On the other hand, I have a perfect image of Harry and a good one of Aerin (whether they match anyone else's, I've no idea) so you got the image over without any looking in mirrors.
And if the cover's different, the cover is wrong (not the words...obviously). I _never_ form an idea of what a character looks like from a cover, it's far too often totally skewed. Sometimes I read the book, then look at the cover and try to guess which character is being depicted...
jjm
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| Re: Heroine size [message #40962 is a reply to message #40946 ] |
Mon, 04 April 2011 01:46 |
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I personally have always had it very clear in my head that Harry was definitely tall--and as a short person myself, left to my own devices, I will make heroines shorter, if their height isn't absolutely necessary.
One of the things I loved about reading "Sunshine," for instance, was how amazingly little description there is for Sunshine, at least in the classic terms. We have a few side-ways descriptions (like Pat telling Sunshine how he'd described her for the desk assistant), but there isn't a lot of the usual physical list and detail. And it left so much more for me to just allow form naturally, rather than trying to "force" an image to appear with all the "right" description. It's not to say that my image of Sunshine isn't clear enough that I could probably describe her like a friend I see often, it's just that most of it is made up out of my own head, and I rather enjoy that.
Then again, another thing I like about the McKinley heroines (and heroes!) is that they're so rarely ever stunningly beautiful creatures, or at least not beautiful because of their "raven black hair, and emerald green eyes." Often their real beauty is just that they're awesome and incredible people, and they inhabit a certain skin and body, and by proxy that skin and body become awesome and incredible.
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| Re: Heroine size [message #40965 is a reply to message #40955 ] |
Mon, 04 April 2011 02:59 |
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KatydidNL
Messages: 35
Registered: March 2011
Location: The Netherlands |
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| EMoon wrote on Mon, 04 April 2011 04:38 |
(I once knew a young woman so beautiful she literally stopped all conversation in a room when she walked in for weeks before people got used to having her around. That very rare gorgeous bone structure, carried through into coloring and body and way of moving. You could not have used her as a character without showing her effect on people--and her effect on people had naturally affected her...her disbelief that people could relate to her except as "that beauty." She was also brilliant and talented, but what people saw was the bones, the skin, the hair, the eyes, the grace.)
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Ha ha! Stella! Recognized her right away from this description. :)And yes, I strongly agree; in that case, the (description of the) beauty -- and the advantages and disadvantages that come with it -- fit securely into the character development of both Stella (and Ky).
I think one of the biggest problems with the physical description in writing has to do with point of view. When you're writing in either first or close third, it's nearly impossible to add physical description without it being clunky. I know I struggle with it.
Why is that? I think it's because most people just don't think about what they look like, most of the time. (Exceptions granted, of course. Everyone between the ages of thirteen and oh, seventeen, maybe. But even they usually think about it comparatively. Which would probably play out more along the lines of: I wish I looked more like that other person. Not: Why isn't my mousy brown hair the same color as her beautiful blond curls? Though for narration's purpose, you could stretch that one, I suppose.)
I think this is also why you get the mirror description so often in books. After all, standing in front of the mirror might be one of the few times people do think in detail about what they look like.
The best ways around this I've seen are: using less description (one of my favorites, as it allows the reader to form the image fully on their own -- for example, reading the "girls who do things" in Robin's books, many of them automatically morph into owning some of my physical features as I'm reading, which I see as positive -- it means I'm strongly identifying with the character); working with more than one POV (so in the Vatta's War series, Stella can describe Ky and vice versa); in first person or close third, having the character engage in some sort of comparison (such as I've mentioned above); or -- another of my favorites -- only whipping out the description when it's important to the plot, for example: "Yes, I have to be the one to sneak into the enemy camp, because with my red hair, freckles and brown eyes, I look just like one of them. They won't think twice.")
An author who adds physical description in (I think) a successful way is Lois McMaster Bujold, especially in her Vorkosigan series. The appearance of her main character, Miles, is important to the st
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| Re: Heroine size [message #40967 is a reply to message #40946 ] |
Mon, 04 April 2011 03:24 |
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Mrs Redboots
Messages: 943
Registered: October 2008
Location: London, UK |
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Mothering Sunday is not the same thing as Mothers' Day. In this country, we happen to celebrate Mothers' Day on Mothering Sunday - in other countries, it is often in May (Wikipedia tells you when it is around the world).
Mothers' Day is fine if, like me, you're celebrating being a grandmother for the first time, or for my daughter, being a Mum, or for my mother, being a great-grandmother - but for many people, those whose mothers are no longer with us, those who had a horrible relationship with their mothers, those who would have liked to have had children but didn't - it can be horrendously painful. Or if you were shut out of your church because you had a small baby, as I was (my church has changed A LOT since those days) and then patted on the head and given a daffodil once a year....
Mothering Sunday is about the mother church, and the nurturing we have received from it, and about God's love - and a breather for those who observe Lent strictly!
Mrs Redboots
I love my computer because my friends live in it!
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| Re: Heroine size [message #40969 is a reply to message #40946 ] |
Mon, 04 April 2011 04:47 |
helbel
Messages: 37
Registered: March 2009 |
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Mothering Sunday is when the girls in service got a full day off and so were allowed to spend an entire day with their mothers so got some looking after instead of running around after other people.
There is no such thing as too many books, only inadequate shelving
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| Re: Heroine size [message #40971 is a reply to message #40946 ] |
Mon, 04 April 2011 12:41 |
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There are occasional exceptions to the rule about covers. The artist for The Vorkosigan Companion clearly read ALL the books, and studied Ms. Bujold's picture, too.
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| Re: Heroine size [message #40974 is a reply to message #40946 ] |
Mon, 04 April 2011 15:18 |
BurgandyIce
Messages: 73
Registered: May 2010
Location: Damascus |
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I have a perfect image of Harry and a good one of Aerin (whether they match anyone else's, I've no idea)
I know I'm replying so late in the conversation, but I love that you brought up what people look like b/c it's one of my favorite things about reading (in general) and your books (in particular). Over-description narrows the imagination. There's so much more to a person than what they look like on first impression. There are people I thought plain upon meeting that I later thought extraordinarily pretty later... or pretty people who are really very ugly after their thoughts come out. (I haven't run into very many shockingly beautiful people, maybe, although I did meet Miss Oregon recently and was impressed with how nice she was despite her good looks. lol And intelligent.)
I feel like I would know Harry or Aerin if I were to bump into them in person, they're so real to me. The height and uh, muscle mass isn't very specific in my mind, more relative to mine, maybe because that's how you thought of them in the first place...
I tend to think of my heroines in terms of my own height—which is another limitation, if you like, but it’s also grounding. It’s one of the things that makes them real to me, and that therefore gives me the ability to make them feel real to you: Harry is taller than I am. Sylvi is shorter than I am.
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| Re: Heroine size [message #40975 is a reply to message #40946 ] |
Mon, 04 April 2011 18:25 |
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Completely OT and rather meta, but...I'm falling down tired right now, and cannot make head nor tail of the more-than-usually convoluted footnotes. I fear the duplication faeries have been more successful in their mischief than they are normally allowed (there's two of †† in the text and of ‡‡ in the notes).
Loved the post nonetheless. I'm attempting to scrobble together a story where the several protagonists are very different heights from myself...in both directions. It's giving me conniptions trying to keep track of how they fit together in various stances, etc. I salute anybody who can just do this stuff in their head.
Phil
My friends say I have CDO…
which is like OCD but with the initials in proper alphabetical order…
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| Re: Heroine size [message #40976 is a reply to message #40946 ] |
Mon, 04 April 2011 19:31 |
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danceswithpahis
Messages: 380
Registered: October 2008 |
Senior Member |
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I too find that excessive physical description is hard to swallow. But then again, I often don't even look super closely at the people I know; they just look like they look, and if you asked me for more than a general height [i.e., comparison to my height; do I look up, down, or straight across when we're standing close to each other] and hair color I would possibly not be able to tell you much. I just finished "Kings of the North", the new Elizabeth Moon book (as a sidenote, it was a fabulous, wonderful book that was worth every second of wait time until it was released and every hour of lost sleep saying, "I'll just read ONE more chapter before bed...."), and noticed happily that there was not a whole lot of physical description of the characters. At one point in time I thought, "Did this person ever have a physical description?" I think the answer was no. I then thought, "Do you know what he looks like?" I answered, "Of course." And then I went on reading. It was great.
As a sidenote on Mother's Day (as opposed to Mothering Day), that has for years been my least favorite holiday (since my mom's death, in fact, unsurprisingly). My favorite experiences with it were the years I spent in Romania (where it was not celebrated; no radio commercials, people asking me if I was going to call my mom, etc) where I could forget about it. Thankfully my church now (the only place where I really hear about it besides commercials) is pretty laidback, and says something like, "Thank you to all of you who are mothers; we respect and honor that. And for those for whom this is a painful day, we love and respect you too." And that's the whole thing.
"Oh good! My dog found the chainsaw!"
-- Lilo ("Lilo and Stitch")
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| Re: Heroine size [message #41020 is a reply to message #40962 ] |
Wed, 06 April 2011 06:25 |
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Marina
Messages: 245
Registered: January 2009
Location: Near San Jose CA |
Senior Member |
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| athenapallas87 wrote on Sun, 03 April 2011 22:46 |
Often their real beauty is just that they're awesome and incredible people, and they inhabit a certain skin and body, and by proxy that skin and body become awesome and incredible.
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This is exactly how I feel about how attractive people are, as more than just to look at. I was always looking for quality-of-personality/soul/whatever, and tended to ignore the body people came in, save for when they move or speak, when I was seeking a like-minded soul for company.
You have said it so very well, too!
However else would you describe a quirky person?
A. Marina Fournier
❦If you want a golden rule that will fit everything, this is it: Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful or believe to be beautiful ❧ William Morris❦
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| Re: Heroine size [message #41021 is a reply to message #40976 ] |
Wed, 06 April 2011 06:49 |
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Marina
Messages: 245
Registered: January 2009
Location: Near San Jose CA |
Senior Member |
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| danceswithpahis wrote on Mon, 04 April 2011 16:31 |
Thankfully my church now (the only place where I really hear about it besides commercials) is pretty laidback, and says something like, "Thank you to all of you who are mothers; we respect and honor that. And for those for whom this is a painful day, we love and respect you too." And that's the whole thing.
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Are you in a UU Fellowship? Sounds like the sort of thing they would say. At least the UU that my MiL attends holds a Flower Communion that day.
In the US where Mother's Day is the second Sunday in May (I think), one doesn't really get the wonderful early-spring (bulb) flowers that I adore. The same can be said for my January birthday! I have a friend whose birthday is even earlier in January than mine, and her favorite flowers are daffs. So when the daffs are blooming, and you can find ready-to-bloom cut bunches at the market, I buy her a couple of bunches, as a late birthday remembrance. This year, due to execessive bulb buying/planting last autumn, I cut them from my garden. She, poor dear, had been suffering with a sinus infection (or a series thereof) since mid September, and was about to be finished with it mid-Feburary (at last), when we were all at a conference together, and she caught the concrud going around, and as did two other women whose immune systems were compromised, came down with double pneumonia. I was still in that awful boot from surgery (escaped it for usual shoes on Monday!), and thus topheavy, when I was trying to clip her some daffs. Nearly toppled forward several times!
MDay felt downright weird the first year, before my mom's stroke, and the first time I was being feted, with Arthur in the stroller (kindly sleeping!) next to the table. The next nine years felt even stranger, as my "mother" was no longer in that body. Most years, there was a command performance to be down in San Diego, and all attention would be focused on Mama. While Mama was still alive, I sent Mother's Day cards, and often a gift, to my sister, who was the primary caretaker of our mother. I couldn't help our mom from a distance, but I could support my sister, who truly needed it.
Edna and I have both decided that not braving the crowds for a nice meal out on The Day is a good thing, and often the week after is just fine. This year, she'll be here, instead of visiting on the east coast, which will be quite nice.
As to fritillaaries , after having only seeing them in gardening books forever, a few years ago Trader Joe's had pots of them outside one spring. I looked, and looked, and looked again, read the tag, and by gosh, there were real, live fritillaries in front of me. Bought a pot, but it did not last long, nor survive to rebloom the next year.
But I had one, at least once, in California!
A. Marina Fournier
❦If you want a golden rule that will fit everything, this is it: Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful or believe to be beautiful ❧ William Morris❦
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| Re: Heroine size [message #41053 is a reply to message #40946 ] |
Thu, 07 April 2011 11:36 |
Magpie Lady
Messages: 3
Registered: March 2011 |
Junior Member |
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I always loved the way that Robin captured the experience of being really tall, not just the physical awkwardness while you're growing, but also the social discomforts. The Hero and the Crown in particular was a great comfort when I was twelve, almost six feet tall, and prone to forgetting where my knees and elbows were. I identified with Harry and Aerin so thoroughly, that on lending the books to a much shorter more graceful friend, her complaint that she couldn't identify with them in their physicality really really threw me. But she was the sort of person who could fall down stairs in a skirt gracefully, and probably never broke anything from sheer dread.
I'm tall enough that it's the sort of thing that people comment on.* I never forget how tall I am (since if you're a woman I am probably looking at the top of your head), so when Sunshine didn't have that awareness, I figured she was probably somewhere around average height. I was a little disappointed, but she is still my favorite of Robin's heroines. I've mostly aged out of desiring sword fights as a regular thing, and I have nowhere to keep a horse, but by the just and the glorious, I can bake.
*Including the utterly tactless "you'd be really cute if you weren't so tall" from a guy that until that moment I had thought was pretty nice.
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| Re: Heroine size [message #41095 is a reply to message #41053 ] |
Thu, 07 April 2011 22:49 |
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elzebrook
Messages: 35
Registered: September 2010 |
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| Magpie Lady wrote on Thu, 07 April 2011 08:36 |
I always loved the way that Robin captured the experience of being really tall, not just the physical awkwardness while you're growing, but also the social discomforts. The Hero and the Crown in particular was a great comfort when I was twelve, almost six feet tall, and prone to forgetting where my knees and elbows were.
[...]
I'm tall enough that it's the sort of thing that people comment on.*
*Including the utterly tactless "you'd be really cute if you weren't so tall" from a guy that until that moment I had thought was pretty nice.
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This. So much thisness. I don't think anyone's ever been that tactless to my face about my height, but I have had men look at me in genuine fear when they realize how tall I actually am. It was particularly bad in the forced ballroom dance for a quarter in high school gym. When one's partner (who is supposed to be leading I might add) comes up to one's bosom, the result tends to be awkwardness and possibly injury.
| basipayna wrote on Sun, 03 April 2011 20:58 |
I've always been somewhat bothered by the cover of my copy of Deerskin because her eyes are the wrong color (plus the artist had a somewhat incorrect view of canine anatomy).
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Hah! I have this version too, and the eyes drive me bonkers. I think what annoys me most is that it's just so close to how I pictured it, and then they go and get the eyes wrong. Bonkers, I tell you!
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| Re: Heroine size [message #41106 is a reply to message #40962 ] |
Fri, 08 April 2011 00:50 |
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white_roses
Messages: 31
Registered: January 2011
Location: Western Nebraska |
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| athenapallas87 wrote on Mon, 04 April 2011 01:46 |
Then again, another thing I like about the McKinley heroines (and heroes!) is that they're so rarely ever stunningly beautiful creatures, or at least not beautiful because of their "raven black hair, and emerald green eyes." Often their real beauty is just that they're awesome and incredible people, and they inhabit a certain skin and body, and by proxy that skin and body become awesome and incredible.
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I concur. Being physically less than perfect, but still being beautiful as one's self is better than being peerless. The physical perfection linked with the overall spinelessness of romance novel heroines long since turned me into a grumbling anti-romance novel reader.
Speaking of anti-romance grumbles. Has anyone else noticed how many, many heroines these days are described as being strong and independent, but at the slightest breath of trouble turn into wailing, flailing puddles of 'damsel-in-distress'? It's truly ridiculous, and one more reason I like characters such as Harry, Aerin, Sunshine, Marisol, etc. When things begin looking dire, they gather themselves and push back.
"I feel the best way to know God is to love many things." --Van Gogh
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| Re: Heroine size [message #41118 is a reply to message #41106 ] |
Fri, 08 April 2011 08:48 |
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| white_roses wrote on Fri, 08 April 2011 05:50 |
Speaking of anti-romance grumbles. Has anyone else noticed how many, many heroines these days are described as being strong and independent, but at the slightest breath of trouble turn into wailing, flailing puddles of 'damsel-in-distress'? It's truly ridiculous, and one more reason I like characters such as Harry, Aerin, Sunshine, Marisol, etc. When things begin looking dire, they gather themselves and push back.
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I was amused recently when I was reading the "Looking Glass" series by John Ringo and Travis Taylor†. They have a female interpreter who suffers from a useful form of ADHD‡ and an idiosyncratic reaction to life-threatening stress: she completely freaks out for about 10–15 seconds (to the extent they have to mute her microphone) then settles down and gets on with it.
Her strength and abilities are highlighted in a later book, when the CO tries to keep her in purdah (he's offended at the idea of having a woman on his ship but can't simply get rid of her) and it's not so gently pointed out to him that because she was the official interpreter to the aliens who helped build the ship (yes, yes, long story, much fun had by all!) she knows the darn thing inside-out and he is stupidly squandering one of his best assets.
I don't know how well he succeeds, but at least Ringo gives the impression of trying to convey that talent, strength and independence are not gender-related.
† It's amusing when the scientific goofs in the first book are lampshaded in the second, because "Doc" Taylor didn't co-write that one so Ringo was basically winging it. Having said that, confusing "mesons" with "muons" isn't necessarily your common-or-garden goof 
‡ She's small and knows her way around a welding kit, so she is able to fix stuff that great hulking Marines can't even reach; she has also read and translated most of the instruction manuals and design documents for the ship they travel on
Phil
My friends say I have CDO…
which is like OCD but with the initials in proper alphabetical order…
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| Re: Heroine size [message #41125 is a reply to message #41106 ] |
Fri, 08 April 2011 12:02 |
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Maren
Messages: 1332
Registered: October 2008
Location: Louisiana |
Senior Member
[Moderator] |
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| white_roses wrote on Fri, 08 April 2011 00:50 |
Speaking of anti-romance grumbles. Has anyone else noticed how many, many heroines these days are described as being strong and independent, but at the slightest breath of trouble turn into wailing, flailing puddles of 'damsel-in-distress'? It's truly ridiculous, and one more reason I like characters such as Harry, Aerin, Sunshine, Marisol, etc. When things begin looking dire, they gather themselves and push back.
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Before I became familiar with Robin's very good reasons for not wanting movies made of her books, I desperately wanted someone to film Hero and somehow incorporate Ani DiFranco's song "Not a Pretty Girl," with the crucial lines: "I ain't no damsel in distress/And I don't need to be rescued. So put me down, punk...wouldn't you prefer a maiden fair? Isn't there a kitten stuck up a tree somewhere?" 
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