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| personal pandemonium - guest post by southdowner [message #39337] |
Sat, 12 February 2011 18:22  |
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find chaos here!
[Updated on: Sat, 12 February 2011 18:23]
Someone says "pie" and we all go on alert, like meercats. "Pie? Where?" - Blackbear
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| Re: personal pandemonium - guest post by southdowner [message #39349 is a reply to message #39343 ] |
Sun, 13 February 2011 06:15  |
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Yes, cats are a whole different kettle of fish  Our two cats both came from friends with dogs and one seems to think he IS a dog, preferring their company. I've been told by cat behaviourists that cats really aren't suited to living in large groups, enjoying their own space to a greater degree than dogs; makes me think of The cat that walked by himself
[Updated on: Sun, 13 February 2011 06:17]
Someone says "pie" and we all go on alert, like meercats. "Pie? Where?" - Blackbear
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| Re: personal pandemonium - guest post by southdowner [message #39351 is a reply to message #39337 ] |
Sun, 13 February 2011 08:34 |
 Xyzzy
Messages: 6
Registered: November 2010
Location: Redwood Empire, Californi... |
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I'm really surprised at how many similarities there are between a multi-dog household, and one with a clowder of cats like mine...
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Sadly we lost Flora very suddenly this year aged only 8
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I very sorry for your (and the dogs') loss -- I hope that it was as non-traumatic as possible all around, for lack of a better way of putting it.
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I'm sure that Rosie misses her daughter
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I wouldn't doubt it... It always amazes me when people claim that animals in a household don't notice or care when one of their loved ones passes on, I assume because the creatures can't cry or use the expected human facial expressions.
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Parker is a rescue labrador who had been badly abused before I adopted him.
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From how he was and the effect you had, sounds like it was good that you were the one. After having many family cats & dogs come from abusive or born-feral/dumped backgrounds, I have little tolerance for anyone that would let themselves (or a family member) lash out at animals like that.
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a two-way relationship with responsibility on both sides. Usually it is not even distantly related to the way in which these owners view things.
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Don't get me started...
We're told to take one day at a time, but I keep being ambushed by several of them at once.
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| Re: personal pandemonium - guest post by southdowner [message #39354 is a reply to message #39349 ] |
Sun, 13 February 2011 10:51 |
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Black Bear
Messages: 3239
Registered: September 2008
Location: Indianapolis, IN USA |
Senior Member
[Moderator] |
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My friend's pitbull/whippet mix is far more of a cuddler than I ever would have imagined; she and I are crazy about each other, and despite being "forbidden" to sit on the furniture the first thing she does when I visit is leap up and snug in next to me. Frequently my hands/arms also get a good thoughtful washing with dog tongue. And despite my dog allergies, I *love* this cuddle time. Totally worth it. 
| southdowner wrote on Sun, 13 February 2011 06:15 |
I've been told by cat behaviourists that cats really aren't suited to living in large groups, enjoying their own space to a greater degree than dogs; makes me think of The cat that walked by himself
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I find cat social behavior fascinating. Every cat I've known who has lived alone has shown signs of boredom unless someone is home all day--my parents' cat does fine, but when I only had one during my grad school days, she would cling to me like velcro the moment I got home and seemed stir crazy. So I got a second cat, and her response was "What the $#^@ is THAT?? I wanted YOU around more, not a KITTEN!!" Now I have 3, and they all more or less get along, and they socialize/play together on occasion. But as far as physical space goes, they never cuddle with one another. I could probably count on one hand the times I've seen any of them sleeping in contact with one of the others... Yet they all crave physical contact with *me.* I sat down to type this and Mean cat has curled up behind my butt on the couch; they all sleep with me at night, on different parts of the bed. So it kind of begs the question of how pets socialize with their humans. Dogs seem to consider us another, stranger form of dog in some ways, and they treat us as they do other dogs to a great extent--social play, physical contact, placing you within the pecking order of a group. Cats don't treat humans like they do other cats at all, is my own experience, and it makes me wonder exactly how we fit into a cat's natural worldview, so to speak...
"The time is always right to do what's right."--MLK Jr.
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| Re: personal pandemonium - guest post by southdowner [message #39363 is a reply to message #39354 ] |
Sun, 13 February 2011 16:13 |
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| Black Bear wrote on Sun, 13 February 2011 15:51 |
...And despite my dog allergies, I *love* this cuddle time. Totally worth it.
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Yes!!
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... So I got a second cat, and her response was "What the $#^@ is THAT?? I wanted YOU around more, not a KITTEN!!"
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We had an only cat who became mesmerised on seeing another cat through our window. Thinking that she (Okie) was lonely we got another younger cat. Big mistake - she beat him up whenever possible until she died (she was about 12 when we got her "friend"). Her legacy was that Spike then beat up the cat we got to keep him company after Okie's death 
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Cats don't treat humans like they do other cats at all, is my own experience, and it makes me wonder exactly how we fit into a cat's natural worldview, so to speak...
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Yes, wouldn't it be fascinating to have a better cat's eye view?
Someone says "pie" and we all go on alert, like meercats. "Pie? Where?" - Blackbear
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| Re: personal pandemonium - guest post by southdowner [message #39368 is a reply to message #39337 ] |
Sun, 13 February 2011 18:59 |
librarykat
Messages: 572
Registered: October 2008
Location: Redneck Riviera |
Senior Member |
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We have six cats in our household. The four older cats pretty much each have their own space in the house - we have a fairly large house. Sometimes we will find three of them curled up at different corners of one bed, but usually they go their own way. When Hubby brought home two kittens last October (the day after our grandson was born), things changed a little. The two kittens are litter mates, and they tend to play together a lot and stay together a lot. And then the surprise for us - Domino, our tuxedo cat, who was always aloof from the others, took a liking to the kittens. They spend a lot of time cuddling together in the cradle behind our sofa; he allows them to snuggle right into him and pile on top of him, and he grooms them. When we look in on them, he lifts his head and stares at us for a moment, then goes right back to paying attention to the kittens.
And all our cats are rescues from "off the street," several of them were abandoned at church, at the restaurant where Older Son works, etc.
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| Re: personal pandemonium - guest post by southdowner [message #39376 is a reply to message #39349 ] |
Mon, 14 February 2011 02:02 |
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danceswithpahis
Messages: 382
Registered: October 2008 |
Senior Member |
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| southdowner wrote on Sun, 13 February 2011 06:15 |
Yes, cats are a whole different kettle of fish Our two cats both came from friends with dogs and one seems to think he IS a dog, preferring their company. I've been told by cat behaviourists that cats really aren't suited to living in large groups, enjoying their own space to a greater degree than dogs; makes me think of The cat that walked by himself
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I read a fascinating book a year or two ago called "Cat Culture: The Social World of a Cat Shelter" by Janet and Steven Alger. It totally blew away some of my ideas about cats. The authors are sociologists who decided to study the sociology of a cat shelter. It's this tiny shelter in an apartment, with something like 3 or 4 rooms and 20-40 cats. You'd think that this would be hideously crowded and a mess, but in fact it works well. Several of the cats are feral and don't interact with the humans much (they mostly hang out on carpeted shelves running around the top of the room), but they generally get along with each other and are highly social, forming close friendships, hanging out in close physical proximity, grooming each other, some of the cats being "nursemaid" cats who help the kittens and the newbies fit in, etc. Part of what makes it work is that the cats have a long-term culture, largely maintained by the ferals and "nonadoptables" that stay there permanently. They also don't have to fight over food and sex (plenty of food for everyone and anyone beyond young kittenhood is fixed), which take away a lot of the struggles right there. And the authors didn't say this, but I think it also helps that there are a LOT of cats. When you have just a few, it's more possible for gross power differentials to develop, but in a large group I would think it would tend to be more even. (I would highly recommend this book, by the way; it's an academic work, but since I like cats I found it highly readable, with many individual stories.)
I have limited immediate experience with this, but as I mentioned on the talk forum, I recently adopted two cats. They came from the same household, although to the knowledge of the woman who rescued them they aren't related, and they were friends before I got them. They enjoy spending time with each other. Sometimes they'll play together, sometimes they'll sit near (or on top of ) each other and groom each other, sometimes they'll just hang out in the same room, but they definitely seem to enjoy each other's company. They also like being around me a lot. Right now one is napping on the floor and the other on the opposite couch, but if I were to get up and go to my room I would have two cat shadows within seconds. If I then went into the bathroom, immediate companionship there too (after all, it takes moral support, right?). It's funny when I'm doing a task like putting away laundry from the living room to my bedroom, how with each armful of clothes going back and forth I have kitties ma
"Oh good! My dog found the chainsaw!"
-- Lilo ("Lilo and Stitch")
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| Re: personal pandemonium - guest post by southdowner [message #39382 is a reply to message #39376 ] |
Mon, 14 February 2011 09:26 |
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shalea
Messages: 784
Registered: October 2008
Location: Raleigh, North Carolina, ... |
Senior Member |
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| danceswithpahis wrote on Mon, 14 February 2011 02:02 |
...It's this tiny shelter in an apartment, with something like 3 or 4 rooms and 20-40 cats. You'd think that this would be hideously crowded and a mess, but in fact it works well. Several of the cats are feral and don't interact with the humans much (they mostly hang out on carpeted shelves running around the top of the room), but they generally get along with each other and are highly social, forming close friendships, hanging out in close physical proximity, grooming each other, some of the cats being "nursemaid" cats who help the kittens and the newbies fit in, etc. Part of what makes it work is that the cats have a long-term culture, largely maintained by the ferals and "nonadoptables" that stay there permanently...
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This is interesting to me -- the shelter I volunteer with has brought in many cats from hoarding situations (not to imply anything negative about the sanctuary described above) where the cats had by necessity to have relationships with large numbers of other cats.
What is interesting is that once the necessity of interacting with this large number of other cats is removed, a number of these cats have made it clear they no longer wish anything to do with other cats (even those with whom they had previously lived and interacted).
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 Re: personal pandemonium - guest post by southdowner [message #39385 is a reply to message #39337 ] |
Mon, 14 February 2011 14:19 |
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Wonderful photos! Handy that bullies seem to enjoy close contact since so many dogs must require a great many napping spots. It's great that you've created such a calm and loving home for your crew.
All of this talk of feline group dynamics has reminded me of one of my favorite lines from Rose Daughter, 'a cat truly is a law unto itself'. Cat social structure is fascinating, and made more so by the fact that no cat ever seems to behave quite like another, making generalizations about them reckless at best. I had three for the longest time and the complexity of their relationships with each other (and with the humans) has never ceased to astonish me.
The oldest (my own mean cat) I raised from a kitten. She's mean. She could care less about affection from other cats. In fact, she'll hiss and smack any feline (and most humans)foolhardy enough to approach her. But despite her evident disdain for other members of her species, she will occasionally play chase with our other female (the ex-feral cuddle bug), and if the cuddler and our recently departed big tom (stray, very friendly) got too rough with one another, she'd come darting out of the shadows like a bolt of furry retribution to defend her 'sister'.
The cuddler and the big boy started off with an unrequited romance. He loved her and wanted to be with her all the time. She hated his guts and would cross the room to smack him in the face for no reason at all. Jealousy is the big issue here. She never had a problem with touch-me-not Mean Cat, but she deeply resents humans squandering their affection on animals other than herself. She's still ticked off about the big stupid dog that spends his days stealing the love that is rightfully hers. But eventually Big Boy cat started sticking up for himself, and then one day they were snuggled together, licking one another's faces. When he died last year, she and Mean cat both spent weeks in a funk, looking all over the house for him. Since then, they seem closer to each other, not snuggling, but much more often together.
[Updated on: Mon, 14 February 2011 14:20] by Moderator
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| Re: personal pandemonium - guest post by southdowner [message #39392 is a reply to message #39337 ] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 00:29 |
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danceswithpahis
Messages: 382
Registered: October 2008 |
Senior Member |
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I'm definitely lucky to have two cats that get along well with each other, and did so before I got them. I've been careful to lavish affection on both of them, of course, but I know that wouldn't necessarily have helped had they taken a dislike to each other.
On a funny related note, they are finally getting the hang of being fed. Not sure how their last person did it, maybe feeding them at different times or something, but when I first got them they'd both go for the same bowl. Apparently they were convinced that there was only enough wet catfood for that one special kitty that I loved more than the other, and they had to dart for that bowl. Now they've figured out that there are two bowls of wet catfood, one for BOTH special kitties, and so when I put the bowls down one goes right and one goes left. Knowing their last person, I can't believe that she didn't give them BOTH tasty treats, so not sure what was up. At least they've never fought over it, though; just ran for the same bowl, and I'd pick one up and move him or her over to the other bowl (which had the EXACT same amount, or at least as close to that as I could manage).
"Oh good! My dog found the chainsaw!"
-- Lilo ("Lilo and Stitch")
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| Re: personal pandemonium - guest post by southdowner [message #39404 is a reply to message #39382 ] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 05:13 |
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I remeber one cat behaviourist - Peter Neville /Claire Bessant? - saying that enough cats in a limited space prevents fighting as they don't want to start something they can't escape from, but increase the cat numbers further and fighting will happen regardless due to the strain on resources... there has been some interesting work done on large groups of cats.
Someone says "pie" and we all go on alert, like meercats. "Pie? Where?" - Blackbear
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| Re: personal pandemonium - guest post by southdowner [message #39411 is a reply to message #39402 ] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 13:57 |
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Angelia
Messages: 406
Registered: October 2008
Location: Southwest Missouri, USA |
Senior Member |
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| southdowner wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 03:23 |
| librarykat wrote on Sun, 13 February 2011 23:59 |
... The two kittens are litter mates, and they tend to play together a lot and stay together a lot...
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Yes, since my early cat owning days I have found that some single cats may like contact while others definitely don't, but every time I've started out with litter mate kittens they've grown up being very close and interactive.
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I have three inside cats--two are littermates, the other is a half-brother. My boys, Poly and Dac, get along well together, but Olive is the loner. She and Dac are littermates, but when she was young, she went to live with my then-fiancee. When we combined the households, she was no longer the In-Charge cat, and though she doesn't fight with the boys, they aren't chummy either.
We also have two outside cats--one a littermate of Olive and Dac and the other is the mother of everyone (my husband calls her the Ur-Mother). During the recent blizzard, they spent a couple of nights in the house, and it was plain to see that Ur-Mother was the In-Charge cat!
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| Re: personal pandemonium - guest post by southdowner [message #39418 is a reply to message #39411 ] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 19:33 |
librarykat
Messages: 572
Registered: October 2008
Location: Redneck Riviera |
Senior Member |
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| Angelia wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 12:57 |
| southdowner wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 03:23 |
| librarykat wrote on Sun, 13 February 2011 23:59 |
... The two kittens are litter mates, and they tend to play together a lot and stay together a lot...
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Yes, since my early cat owning days I have found that some single cats may like contact while others definitely don't, but every time I've started out with litter mate kittens they've grown up being very close and interactive.
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I have three inside cats--two are littermates, the other is a half-brother. My boys, Poly and Dac, get along well together, but Olive is the loner. She and Dac are littermates, but when she was young, she went to live with my then-fiancee. When we combined the households, she was no longer the In-Charge cat, and though she doesn't fight with the boys, they aren't chummy either.
We also have two outside cats--one a littermate of Olive and Dac and the other is the mother of everyone (my husband calls her the Ur-Mother). During the recent blizzard, they spent a couple of nights in the house, and it was plain to see that Ur-Mother was the In-Charge cat!
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All my cats are indoor cats; we live in a rural area, and our neighbors all seem to have large dogs they allow to roam the neighborhood. Plus we have red hawks in the area, and the kittens at least are small enough to be prey.
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| Re: personal pandemonium - guest post by southdowner [message #39424 is a reply to message #39421 ] |
Wed, 16 February 2011 00:42 |
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All my cats, with one exception, for the last 30 years have been sibling pairs, which has been quite satisfactory. I have taken two in each case, partly on the reasoned theory that they will be company for each other, and partly for the sheer impossibility of choosing just one from the litter.
Actually my latest cats were not chosen but discovered - a pair of scrawny, flea-bitten, anemic, apparently abandoned feral kittens, not quite weaned, from under the back deck of the house. They weighed 24 ounces put together. Today, 3-1/2 years later, they add up to about 26 pounds! They have always been cuddle-buddies, thought with occasional spats. The great big 15-lb. male, due probably to being weaned too early, has never lost the suckling habit. As a little kitten he would nurse on his sister's shoulder, and she would lick him, and lick, and lick .... He still does it, though she is only sometimes tolerant now. He also nurses on my sweatshirt.
The one exception was the pregnant stray that I took in in 2008 when my kittens were about 8 months old. I raised (or provided a place for her to raise) the 5 kittens, got them neutered and adopted, and ended up with the mom, who was pretty unadoptable at the time. Over the next two years she became almost sweet. She loved skritching, on her terms only, and would snuggle for it for long periods. But one could never approach her except when she was relaxed on a sofa or chair. Sadly, her two years experience on the streets were not sufficient to keep her out of the way of a car last December.
The younger cats never more than tolerated her. She was definitely low cat on the totem pole when it came to a place at the food dishes. They manoeuvered for the ones they wanted and she circled around and took the other - or just left and came back later. It was not clear from their behavior after her death whether they were aware of the change, and missed her, or not.
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| Re: personal pandemonium - guest post by southdowner [message #39471 is a reply to message #39459 ] |
Thu, 17 February 2011 08:19 |
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Resources - whether cat, dog, rat, horse or person. Too few resources and/or too many individuals means resource aggression - you do what it takes to get what you need, whether that is space, food, shelter, water...
Studies were done decades ago with rats, looking at density of populations and correlations with effects of urban living on human populations...
Someone says "pie" and we all go on alert, like meercats. "Pie? Where?" - Blackbear
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