Home » Discussion Forums » Blog Post Discussion » Bells and Language
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| Re: Bells and Language [message #1434 is a reply to message #1402 ] |
Thu, 16 October 2008 23:28   |
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 L.R.K.
Messages: 1081
Registered: October 2008
Location: Sweden |
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| Robin wrote on Fri, 17 October 2008 01:19 |
I wonder if the Damarian might have a slightly Persian feel to it? Of course, I don't know Persian, so I might be completely talking through my hat; Urdu is made up basically of four languages: Arabic, Persian, Turkish and Sanskrit and I might be utterly mistaken as to which are the Persian parts!
********** It's definitely in the Urdu-Arabic-Persian-Turkish-Sanskrit range but I GUARANTEE I know less about this than you do. It's one of the things I keep meaning to pursue. . . .
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Oh, that is really interesting - it's sort of the flavour of the thing! "Mazahan" made me think of "Shah Jehan" (The Emperor who built the Taj Mahal) and "Jehengir" (his father). ("Jehan" means "world" by the way, and since I know - from prayers &c - that the word "duniya", which also means "world" is Arabic, that possibly "jehan" is Persian...But it's all guesswork of course! I'm no linguist, although words really interest me - not grammar - but where they come from, the way they might change &c. Not enough to actually study the matter though!) I don't think it's necessary to know a language to catch the flavour - it's like when one knows what language is being spoken, although one does not know a word of it...
Why, I feel all thin, sort of stretched, if you know what I mean, like butter that has been scraped over too much bread.
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| Re: Bells and Language [message #1437 is a reply to message #1352 ] |
Thu, 16 October 2008 23:51 |
Jennie
Messages: 6
Registered: October 2008
Location: Manchester, UK |
Junior Member |
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| AJLR wrote on Thu, 16 October 2008 07:59 |
| Jennie wrote on Thu, 16 October 2008 15:27 |
It is important to note that I nearly asked my soon to be husband how difficult it would be to make sure we could make it...before the reality of ticket changing penalties raised its ugly head.
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Now that is true dedication to the 'McKinley in the UK' cause, Jennie. I salute you! 
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Well, yes. I did hand carry my copies of Sunshine and Blue Sword across the Atlantic because trusting them to a container ship made me twitchy. Those books are important. Plus, I will actually end up in Manchester--it may actually be **easier** to change a ticket than to take the train down later! Obviously, what I should do is agitate for a McKinley event at my (soon to be) local bookshop.
But, I would never do that if it would in any way delay the next book.
She is too fond of books, and it has turned her brain. ~ Louisa May Alcott ~
unabridgedopinions.blogspot.com
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| Re: Bells and Language [message #1451 is a reply to message #1434 ] |
Fri, 17 October 2008 04:21 |
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Susan from Athens
Messages: 817
Registered: October 2008
Location: Athens, Greece |
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| L.R.K. wrote on Fri, 17 October 2008 06:28 |
Oh, that is really interesting - it's sort of the flavour of the thing! "Mazahan" made me think of "Shah Jehan" (The Emperor who built the Taj Mahal) and "Jehengir" (his father). ("Jehan" means "world" by the way, and since I know - from prayers &c - that the word "duniya", which also means "world" is Arabic, that possibly "jehan" is Persian...
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Well the culture of the Mughal emperors was Persian, but they Turco-Mongol in descent and Uzbeki in derivation, so it was a real melting pot. But the only Arab came from the Koran, given that they were a Muslim culture. Shah Jahan was a direct descendant of Timur (i.e. Tamburlaine), one of the quintessential wild "barbarian" horsemen / conquerors of Central Asia(sorry, my head is a trivia trap).
“I have always imagined heaven to be a kind of library.” –Jorge Luis Borges
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| Re: Bells and Language [message #1456 is a reply to message #1451 ] |
Fri, 17 October 2008 07:01 |
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L.R.K.
Messages: 1081
Registered: October 2008
Location: Sweden |
Senior Member |
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| Susan from Athens wrote on Fri, 17 October 2008 10:21 |
| L.R.K. wrote on Fri, 17 October 2008 06:28 |
Oh, that is really interesting - it's sort of the flavour of the thing! "Mazahan" made me think of "Shah Jehan" (The Emperor who built the Taj Mahal) and "Jehengir" (his father). ("Jehan" means "world" by the way, and since I know - from prayers &c - that the word "duniya", which also means "world" is Arabic, that possibly "jehan" is Persian...
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Well the culture of the Mughal emperors was Persian, but they Turco-Mongol in descent and Uzbeki in derivation, so it was a real melting pot. But the only Arab came from the Koran, given that they were a Muslim culture. Shah Jahan was a direct descendant of Timur (i.e. Tamburlaine), one of the quintessential wild "barbarian" horsemen / conquerors of Central Asia(sorry, my head is a trivia trap).
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Actually, I find this interesting.
(My ancestors were Persian-speaking Pathans from Afghanistan; my great- or great-great grandfather moved into what was then India, before it became Pakistan. I'm a Muslim and therefore know a few Arabic prayers and have recognized a few words in Urdu - such as "duniya"...)
[Updated on: Fri, 17 October 2008 07:02]
Why, I feel all thin, sort of stretched, if you know what I mean, like butter that has been scraped over too much bread.
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| Re: Bells and Language [message #1460 is a reply to message #1339 ] |
Fri, 17 October 2008 07:30 |
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Mrs Redboots
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Registered: October 2008
Location: London, UK |
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| Robin wrote on Thu, 16 October 2008 12:48 |
(There would have been bells: just not CHANGE RINGING bells. What surprises me is that it took so long to invent change ringing.) Surely *any* HUMAN god, I mean god of HUMANS would appreciate music?? We're *so* music oriented, even those of us who aren't. But it's like stories. We have to tell stories. Words are music too. And music is words. . . .
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I thought change-ringing was mathematics, not music - or do I mean mathematics, not words? It's relatively uniquely English - other European cultures, I gather, play tunes on their bells.
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[stopping now before I drift off into a sibylline alternate reality . . . ]
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Oh please, feel free.....
Mrs Redboots
I love my computer because my friends live in it!
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| Re: Bells and Language [message #1497 is a reply to message #1420 ] |
Fri, 17 October 2008 18:28 |
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but I feel that change ringing patterns ought to have ancient alchemical meanings–that while practise nights are for practise, formal ringing should reflect something or other cosmological–you know those beautiful medieval charts of How Things Work, with the earth in the middle and the empyrean surrounding everything.
Was change ringing ever tied into the canonical hours? (Or was that too Catholic?) Because that would give an entry-point, I would think - there must be a way to convert between the canonical hours and the planetary hours, and once you've gotten into the planetary system you'd have correspondence tables enough to paper an entire house, and could pull in herbs and body parts and occasions and heaven only knows what else.
I've wondered about the language (especially of Damar) and the names as well. Mirasol most recently... because it makes me think of Girasol, to turn to the sun, which rather works for her. (I have wanted to keep bees about forever, but have so far kept only orchard mason bees, which are wonderful, but not really the same. Though they are very friendly, and would often sit on my front step and sun themselves. Woe to anyone I caught about to step on my bees!)
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| Re: Bells and Language [message #1498 is a reply to message #1459 ] |
Fri, 17 October 2008 19:16 |
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L.R.K.
Messages: 1081
Registered: October 2008
Location: Sweden |
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| AJLR wrote on Fri, 17 October 2008 13:28 |
That's fascinating, L.R.K. Is your family still particularly multi-lingual or do you find you've all settled on one or two languages that are the most useful?
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In Pakistan, you mean? Well, quite a lot of them live in Multan, and they speak Multani or Saraiki as their first language, some live in Karachi and speak Punjabi - apart from Urdu, of course, which is the common, educated language; there has to be one, since there are so many languages and many of those are incomprehensible to those who do not speak them. I myself can understand Punjabi so-so, well enough to follow a conversation most of the time - Multani on the other hand...well, I recall I was so glad whenever there turned up a word I understood! I don't know if anybody in the family knows Persian anymore, and if they do, very likely they learnt it in school - my family are pretty much Pakistanis by now. What languages does your friend from Peshawar speak? Is one of them Pushto? Now, that is a language that's impossible for me to understand!
As for me, Urdu is my third language, after Swedish and English, and I cannot read or write it (it uses basically the Arabic alphabet, with additions like a letter for "p", which the Arabic does not have). I came to it rather late, too - I knew phrases like "how are you" and words like "cat" and "dog"; my mother being from Finland and my parents having met in Sweden, we actually spoke English (of sorts ) at home. I learnt most of my Urdu by watchin Indian movies!
[Updated on: Fri, 17 October 2008 19:18]
Why, I feel all thin, sort of stretched, if you know what I mean, like butter that has been scraped over too much bread.
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| Re: Bells and Language [message #1509 is a reply to message #1460 ] |
Fri, 17 October 2008 19:56 |
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Robin
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Location: England |
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[Hellgoddess] |
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| Mrs Redboots wrote on Fri, 17 October 2008 07:30 |
| Robin wrote on Thu, 16 October 2008 12:48 |
(There would have been bells: just not CHANGE RINGING bells. What surprises me is that it took so long to invent change ringing.) Surely *any* HUMAN god, I mean god of HUMANS would appreciate music?? We're *so* music oriented, even those of us who aren't. :) But it's like stories. We have to tell stories. Words are music too. And music is words. . . .
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I thought change-ringing was mathematics, not music
********** I'm going to say it's both. The methods are mathematically based, but the noise is music. The maths is the carrier, like panniers on your bike, or the medium, like words.
- or do I mean mathematics, not words? It's relatively uniquely English - other European cultures, I gather, play tunes on their bells.
************ English, slightly spread to the Commonwealth. But only countries with an English connection change-ring, ie America, Australia, NZ (hmm, and South Africa. Those sneaky English).
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[stopping now before I drift off into a sibylline alternate reality . . . ]
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Oh please, feel free.....
*********** Well, wait'll I get going on voice, and On Fairy-Stories.
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| Re: Bells and Language [message #1512 is a reply to message #1502 ] |
Fri, 17 October 2008 20:08 |
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Laura
Messages: 196
Registered: October 2008
Location: Midwestern USA |
Senior Member |
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| Robin wrote on Fri, 17 October 2008 19:48 |
Wait, wait, wait. Does this mean that with Dragonhaven, Chalice, and Fire, you will have put out three books in three years? This is a cosmic event! It'd be like 2 Haley's Comets in a week
*********** Well, I had help with FIRE. But . . . yes. And we're shooting for four with PEGASUS, but only if it STOPS running horizon-chasing long. . . .
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I admit, I had Pegasus in the back of my mind as well but was afraid I'd make your brain explode if I counted it on my list.
Known on both Ravelry and LibraryThing as thelorelei.
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| Re: Bells and Language [message #1543 is a reply to message #1505 ] |
Sat, 18 October 2008 02:10 |
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L.R.K.
Messages: 1081
Registered: October 2008
Location: Sweden |
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| Robin wrote on Sat, 18 October 2008 01:52 |
(My ancestors were Persian-speaking Pathans from Afghanistan;
******** This is so romantic I can't stand it. I know, I know, the real world is NOT romantic (much). But are there any stories of your family's life there?
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Well, the stories are rather fairy-talish, I must say. The origins of our clan/tribe &c; why my great- or great-great grandfather moved to (then) India in the first place. I need to refresh my memories of these to get the real romantic feel to them - as such stories should be told!
Sometimes one wonders how much is fact and how much is fiction - but in a sense I don't really care! The real world can sometimes be overrated, don't you think?
In '77, when we drove from Sweden to Pakistan, we went through Afghanistan. I (sadly) don't remember this, but it seems our car got stuck somewhere and we met some Afghans and Pappa mentioned that we were "Khans" and they said so were they, and inquired which tribe we belonged to - and when that turned out to be the same, they were delighted and offered us hospitality and wanted us to come and stay with them. We didn't stay, of course, since we had to move on - but yes, any true Pathan knows what tribe they belong to!
Back to stories - there used to be a really strong tradition of oral retelling; some of my aunts and uncles - when they told stories you sat there spellbound! Once my Aunty Zarmina told us of a horror movie she's seen, and we listened, scarcely able to breathe! Sadly, this is falling into disuse...I don't think hard facts are somehow really important in that culture - people remember events like births or marriages by other events like: "Oh, that was the year when---" It's fun when one discovers that things that one takes for granted, are thought of completely differently somewhere else. Once I was explaining to some relations how much difference there is in seasons in Sweden, how dark it is in winter, and how light in summer. "Oh", one of them said, "how do you tell time then? Do you follow the clock?" - "Why, yes", I answered, surprised - was there another way? (I've actually noticed a significant lack of stress in Pakistan...)
Well, now I think I've justified my claim of being a Babbler! I hope there was at least something interesting in all this... (And I'll try to get hold of/refresh my memory of, some good actual stories!)
Why, I feel all thin, sort of stretched, if you know what I mean, like butter that has been scraped over too much bread.
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| Re: Bells and Language [message #1549 is a reply to message #1498 ] |
Sat, 18 October 2008 05:01 |
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AJLR
Messages: 2566
Registered: September 2008
Location: England, UK |
Senior Member
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L.R.K. wrote: | Quote: |
In Pakistan, you mean?
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I meant more your immediate family, in Sweden, but I think you've answered that. And re speaking English as a halfway house, yes, my brother recently came back to the UK after living in Belgium for several years, in the Flemish-speaking region. He says that the different Flemish dialects are so hard to understand that very often Flemish speakers from different areas use English instead when talking together... My brother apparently has an Antwerpen accent, as that was the area he was in.
L.R.K. wrote: | Quote: |
What languages does your friend from Peshawar speak?
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I think Urdu, Punjabi and I'll have to ask about the third one. Will let you know.
And I'm really looking forward to hearing some of your family stories, when you have a moment.
"Never let a computer know you're in a hurry."
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| Re: Bells and Language [message #1566 is a reply to message #1258 ] |
Sat, 18 October 2008 11:51 |
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Lucy Coats
Messages: 223
Registered: October 2008
Location: Northamptonshire, UK |
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Where do I start here? Quite simply, I guess... I AM SO HAPPY TO KNOW ALL THIS STUFF! Thank you, Robin. 'Making up' languages in books is a funny old business, and it's fascinating to know how someone else goes about it. I'm glad you sort of do it by the seat of your pants and 'ear' too. My last book involved having the 'spell language' in gaelic. I am a celt, but a) I don't speak it and b)I can't pronounce it without a lot of looking up and spitting out of bits of my mouth I don't usually use. I did try really hard to get it 'right', but when people come at me and hiss that I got the past participle of some verb wrong, I hiss back that it's set in an alternate reality where it's DIFFERENT. There are no rules but your own.
I love all your Damarian words--a 'britti' forinstance is something I can see absolutely in my mind's eye, flying up and up into the blue. I am of the firm opinion that when a really good writer invents something new, then somewhere, in some other place, it springs into existence. Somewhere, somehow, all the stories (even the scary ones) have their own reality. And for all those who follow your work, Robin, each of us will have their own separate mind pic of what the landscape, and the people who reside there, look like. I think that's wonderful and a tribute to the power of how your imagination works on and stimulates ours. I guess that's why the publishing date of 'the next' is of immense interest to all here! I also guess that the pressure, leading to collapse, panting in corners etc, is huge. Take your time (know you will  ) anticipation is never a bad thing--adds honey sauce to the eventual arrival of the next book--whatever and whenever it comes. For the Lawd's Sake--we've only just had Chalice!! I will be possessing my soul in patience till 2010 and on. I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I don't think anyone will disagree if I say that we know whatever comes will be worth the wait, whether bells, pegasi or albion! Meanwhile, have a strong cup of herb tea with some of the ever scarce honey and BREATHE!! No pressure to do so of course!! :->
Lucy xx
"'Thou shalt not' might reach the head, but it takes 'Once upon a time' to reach the heart."
http://www.scribblecitycentral.blogspot.com
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| Re: Bells and Language [message #1609 is a reply to message #1258 ] |
Sat, 18 October 2008 18:23 |
Jeanne Marie
Messages: 320
Registered: October 2008
Location: Kansas City |
Senior Member |
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Ahem. This might all be much more than anyone wanted to know – feel free to skip! But, being a Catholic church musician, I have, at times, looked into what the church says about music, and what it does with music, musicians, and musical instruments. So I thought I’d comment on Robin’s remarks:
“Surely *any* HUMAN god, I mean god of HUMANS would appreciate music?? We're *so* music oriented, even those of us who aren't. But it's like stories. We have to tell stories. Words are music too. And music is words. . . .”
I looked up a number of things, and have two full pages of quotes from various documents of the church and of other folks who think and write about church and music stuff regularly: quotes regarding music, mostly, and a few interesting tidbits about bells. The one that I think is most relevant to Robin’s comment follows:
“The liturgy is identified as the preeminent place for God’s activity in bringing human beings into union with God. … Thus the fundamental purpose of worship music in [Catholic] liturgy is to transform human beings in grace.” (From “From Sacred Song to Ritual Music: Twentieth Century Understandings of Roman Catholic Worship Music” by Jan Michael Joncas, The Liturgical Press, 1982, Pg 33-34)
This idea of being transformed (deification) by our participation in liturgy is a notion of which I am particularly fond. And, to me, that notion answers the question (round-aboutly, perhaps), of whether or not God appreciates music.
Karl Rahner wrote (in difficult German, which I read in difficult English…) about the reasons we all look for God. Rahner speaks of us all being hard-wired to search for God, to search for meaning beyond what we can perceive with our senses. We are hard-wired for this because, at our deepest being, we are made in the “image and likeness” of God, and filled with God’s breath. We are therefore all already connected to God, by virtue of the fact that we are alive at all. This idea then of liturgy or other prayer experiences being designed to bring us into union with God, to my mind, becomes logical – we are already made up of “God-stuff” (highly technical theological term, I know…), and so we are always striving for that RE-union with God. Sometimes, we know it when we get there, other times not so much. But, Catholic churches have always believed that participation in the sacraments, particularly in the liturgy, is one way of unification with God. And, as Joncas says above, his thought is that music’s primary purpose in worship is to accomplish this union.
Another document says it this way:
“We can analyze any kind of music and tease out its rhythms and its tonalities: and yet it will still carry us beyond itself, leading us through the interplay of symbols until we are not only carried beyond the music but beyond our very selves. In its complexity, music accompanies humankind on its journey, in its actions, in its listening to the word, and in its response, its effort to open itself up to the Lord: humankind complete – body, heart and spirit.” (From “Music and liturgy: The Universa laus document and commentary” by Claude Duchesneau and Michel Veuthey, translated by Paul Inwood (The Pastoral Press, 1988, pg 91). Does this equal appreciating music, for God or for people? I say yes!
About bells specifically, official documents don’t speak a lot about instruments other than the voice and the pipe organ, but bells are one of the few things that are blessed or consecrated to their work. And, the ritual used for doing so is almost identical to the ritual used for dedicating an altar.* (and apologies for the lofty text, this is from a “lofty text” kind of source…and the rite is pretty old! There is more modern text/instruction for this rite, but its in a book I don’t have handy.)
The Rite of Blessing of Bells:
“The bishop in white vestments first recites seven psalms with his attendant clergy to implore the Divine assistance. The he mixes salt with water, reciting prayers of exorcism analogous to those always used in the preparation of holy water, but making special reference to the bell and to the evil influences of the air--the phantoms, the storms, the lightning--which threaten the peace of devout Christians who come to the church to sing the praises of God. Then the bishop and his attendants "wash" (lavant) the bell inside and out with the water thus prepared and dry it with towels, the psalm "Laudate Dominum de coelis" and five others of similar import being sung meanwhile. These are followed by various unctions [anointings with oil], those on the outside of the bell being made with the oil of the sick in seven places, and those on the inside with chrism [a special perfumed oil] in four places. In the accompanying prayers mention is made of the silver trumpets of the Old Law and of the fall of the walls of Jericho, while protection is asked once more against the powers of the air, and the faithful are encouraged to take refuge under the sign of the Holy Cross. … A form is used introducing the patron saint: "May this bell be hallowed [holy], O Lord, and consecrated in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. In honour of St. N. [whichever saint is to be patron to the bell] Peace be to thee. [I love that the bishop is offering peace to the bell!]" Finally, the thurible with incense and myrrh are placed under the bell so that the smoke arising may fill its cavity. Then another prayer is said of similar purport to the last, and the ceremony ends with the reading of the passage in the Gospel concerning Martha and Mary.” (from The Catholic Encyclopedia online)
Someone in the forum also mentioned/asked if bells were used to mark the canonical hours (the hours in the day when monks were called to prayers), and yes, bells were used for that (they still are, at many Benedictine abbeys I’ve visited). Here’s another fun quote on the use of bells: “ “At first [church bells’] role was to alert the faithful that it was time to gather in the church, but bells were also used to solemnize certain moments in the Mass, moments during the day, certain days [of the year], certain events in the life of the parish or in the life of the church, but [sic] also events taking place in the community (fire, death, storm…) or the nation (war, victory…).” (From Music and liturgy: The Universa laus document and commentary” by Claude Duchesneau and Michel Veuthey, translated by Paul Inwood (The Pastoral Press, 1988, Pg 119)
Hope folks enjoyed this!
Smiles,
Jeanne Marie
*Catholic documents speak about the altar being a manifestation of Christ, and so altars are blessed/consecrated before they are used. I’ll also note that the sequence of actions in the ritual of blessing/consecration for bells and altars parallels the rite for baptizing people. I think all of this is very significant!
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| Re: Bells and Language [message #1610 is a reply to message #1258 ] |
Sat, 18 October 2008 18:28 |
Jeanne Marie
Messages: 320
Registered: October 2008
Location: Kansas City |
Senior Member |
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Oh, and another thing:
"I’m not a musician‡‡ the way I am a story writer, but it fascinates me that if you can (apparently) ‘hear’ one thing, you’ll probably be able to ‘hear’ another thing, just because hearing is familiar."
Yes. It's interesting, I also work this way. I'm a terrible sight-reader, but I memorize music very well, and part of the reason is because I hear it in my head so clearly (and take mental photographs of the music page too, but that's another sense!). I best learn vocal music of any sort in context - a solo line with the accompaniment, a choral piece with the other parts.
I do think that learning to pay attentino to the things we "hear" with the inner ear is an important skill, whether you're a writer or a musician!
Smiles,
Jeanne Marie
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