Home » Discussion Forums » Blog Post Discussion » Silly Day, Part the First
| Silly Day, Part the First [message #41078] |
Thu, 07 April 2011 20:25  |
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 Black Bear
Messages: 3216
Registered: September 2008
Location: Indianapolis, IN USA |
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Part one, Silly Day.
"The time is always right to do what's right."--MLK Jr.
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| Re: Silly Day, Part the First [message #41079 is a reply to message #41078 ] |
Thu, 07 April 2011 21:12  |
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Well, it's not an ipad, but I don't have a data plan for my iphone. (I'm using it as an ipod touch basically.) So I only pick up wireless, no 3G. And...most of the time it's not a problem, but I admit it was a little of a hassle when I was traveling and that was my only link to the real wor-- I mean the internet. I never wished so hard for a data plan as I did then. But usually...I don't do much traveling. So it's not an issue.
I'd like to get whatever latest generation of an ipad is out the next time I *do* travel, and may have to fork out for the 3G just because wireless service is shaky in places, even when there's "free public wifi." Liars!
Smooshes!
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| Re: Silly Day, Part the First [message #41080 is a reply to message #41078 ] |
Thu, 07 April 2011 21:33 |
libby.gorman
Messages: 70
Registered: June 2009
Location: Durham, NC |
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Beauty in ROSE DAUGHTER. Lissar. Sunshine. Mirasol. (Peony is probably cheating.) None of them are tomboys. I think I would also question this definition of ‘feminine’.
One thing I always liked about your heroines is that, to me, they seem very feminine, even while doing lots of brave and strong stuff. Of course, the Damar books have never been my favorites (yes, I know I need to go back and try them again...I have no excuses but the peculiarity of personal taste), so maybe that affects my view of the overall cast of McKinley characters.
But if I had to I realise I’d choose CHARMED LIFE—because it was the first one I read and it completely blew me away. I’d never read anything like it. And Diana had a besotted fan for life. Realising this does make me a little more patient with the people who still insist on telling me they love BEAUTY or the Damar books the best
YES. Beauty will always be my favorite, because my mom gave it to me in late elementary/early middle school and I loved it immediately and have loved it ever since. It's what I go back to whenever I need a nice, comfy, favorite read. Even though I really LIKE all the others I've read (and haven't really thought about comparative merit), I know that I will always go back to Beauty first because it's my old buddy.
Libby
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| Re: Silly Day, Part the First [message #41081 is a reply to message #41078 ] |
Thu, 07 April 2011 21:33 |
Catlady
Messages: 230
Registered: December 2008
Location: Aurora, Colorado |
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My favorite Diana Wynne Jones book is probably The Dark Lord of Derkholm (though Deep Secret, Howl's Moving Castle, Fire and Hemlock, and Witch Week [which was my first] are all vying for a very close second-fifth). And I love Charmed Life, too...
I just finished The Crown of Dalemark for the first time a couple of days ago, and though the ending is not sad, I've been sad ever since. Because I'd never read it before, and I started it a month ago, and... Anyway, I'm very sorry.
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| Re: Silly Day, Part the First [message #41089 is a reply to message #41078 ] |
Thu, 07 April 2011 22:03 |
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boddhi_d
Messages: 70
Registered: October 2008
Location: Tennessee |
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Those of you who fell first and hard for Damar, for example, seem to feel that ‘most’ of my heroines are tall and clumsy.
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I started with Beauty, who of course *grew* over the course of the book; if I have a 'most' it's that the characters go through physical changes as well as emotional one.
In the walking-around-'real'-world, I'm pretty oblivious to the assorted heights of most people, except in the 'please be tall for me & hand me that bowl off the top shelf' situations. And I'm 5'2", so most every character's taller than me anyway.
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None of them are tomboys. I think I would also question this definition of ‘feminine’.
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Gah. Arg. Gnng. Yes-s-s-s. I spent most of my adolescence & early adulthood struggling with 'femininity.' I have wider-than usual shoulders & ribcage, so no matter what I weighed, I always felt 'sturdy' - more like a football* player than a cheerleader. Then add to that a number of 'masculine' traits (good at math & science; never wore make-up; independent; read sf & mystery novels; shopping for clothes was a chore) - there were times when I questioned my gender.
Eventually, I came to the conclusion that *I* was fine; it was the overly-narrow interpretation of 'feminine' that was frelled up. Books with active female characters - yours, Lois Bujold's, Charles de Lint's, David Weber's Honor Harrington series - helped enormously. (Still do, when the conservative/reactionary mores of the Bible Belt become TOO MUCH.)
On the non-fiction side, one of the better books that I've read recently is Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine. The main point (backed up by a lot of references) is that the vast majority of masculine/feminine behavior is learned, not hard-wired. One example that stood out for me is that test results (for men AND women) can intentionally be skewed by telling or implying that the thing being tested is something that one gender should be particularly strong/weak in.
--Dawn
*American football, with all the shoulder pads
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| Re: Silly Day, Part the First [message #41090 is a reply to message #41078 ] |
Thu, 07 April 2011 22:06 |
b_twin_1
Messages: 2597
Registered: September 2008
Location: Victoria, Australia |
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Those of you who fell first and hard for Damar, for example, seem to feel that ‘most’ of my heroines are tall and clumsy.
I hadn't really thought of this exactly. TBS was my first McKinley book and yes, I feel hard for it. (Horses... DUH.  )
I'm kinda short^ but I don't find I project that onto characters I am reading about. The book said Harry was tall. So Harry was tall.^^ Aerin... I can't recall having a particular Set-In-Stone idea about her, besides her red hair. She wasn't *short* in my mind but I didn't think of her as really *tall* like Harry.
When I am reading I don't construct a picture in my head that sets a character into a set mould - not unless the author has described it so.
Sunshine, for example, is not described physically much, and I found that I really didn't care. If there had been an exact description then that would have been fine too. But I don't mind, as a reader, filling in the blanks - if that is necessary. 
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^ This makes keeping up with a hurtling Hellgoddess difficult even when she's on a *bad* day.  And I need a box to stand on most times when ringing.
^^I totally empathised with Harry when she was learning to mount Tsornin without stirrups. (I'm not particularly good in that department ) My arms felt rubbery just reading about her efforts!
I've got a plan so cunning you could put a tail on it and call it a weasel ~ Blackadder
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| Re: Silly Day, Part the First [message #41091 is a reply to message #41089 ] |
Thu, 07 April 2011 22:13 |
b_twin_1
Messages: 2597
Registered: September 2008
Location: Victoria, Australia |
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| boddhi_d wrote on Thu, 07 April 2011 22:03 |
In the walking-around-'real'-world, I'm pretty oblivious to the assorted heights of most people, except in the 'please be tall for me & hand me that bowl off the top shelf' situations. And I'm 5'2", so most every character's taller than me anyway.
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YES. LOL
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None of them are tomboys. I think I would also question this definition of ‘feminine’.
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Gah. Arg. Gnng. Yes-s-s-s. I spent most of my adolescence & early adulthood struggling with 'femininity.' I have wider-than usual shoulders & ribcage, so no matter what I weighed, I always felt 'sturdy' - more like a football* player than a cheerleader. Then add to that a number of 'masculine' traits (good at math & science; never wore make-up; independent; read sf & mystery novels; shopping for clothes was a chore) - there were times when I questioned my gender.
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Yeah, that. Nothing like being told "gee, you have really good swimmer's shoulders" .... But by then I had been reading about Girls Who Do Things and I knew I wanted to be on the farm. Big shoulders were GOOD I told myself. (Handy for bell ringing too! mwahahaha)
I've got a plan so cunning you could put a tail on it and call it a weasel ~ Blackadder
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| Re: Silly Day, Part the First [message #41093 is a reply to message #41078 ] |
Thu, 07 April 2011 22:24 |
EMoon
Messages: 666
Registered: March 2009 |
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I came to hate the term "feminine" because it always seemed to mean someone else. I have two X chromosomes, never wanted to "be" a boy, but was always drawn to "traditionally" more male interests--outdoors (YES!), active (YES!), science (YES!), etc. I like the colors men are supposed to like (dark or intense colors) rather than pastels most of the time. It took decades to believe that since I am, in fact, female...what I am is female ENOUGH.
I wish I'd had the wide shoulders, though, because I sure have the wide hips (every doctor, for years of my young womanhood, looked at my pelvis as the ideal nursery for broods. It did not help that we couldn't have biological children and yet they all said "But your PELVIS--it's PERFECT.")
As for the jumping cow...I think determined teenage girls of a certain type can accomplish miracles with horses, cattle, sheep, goats, dogs, cats...
E
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| Re: Silly Day, Part the First [message #41102 is a reply to message #41078 ] |
Fri, 08 April 2011 00:02 |
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anne_d
Messages: 210
Registered: October 2008
Location: Orange County, California |
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I'm way behind on reading and commenting here, but for what it's worth -
For a long time, Beauty was my favorite of your works, partly because I found it first, but partly because of that magical library. The same with Hero and the Crown and The Blue Sword - I loved the characters; they were all interesting and individual. Size mattered not, although I did appreciate that your heroines were none of them conventional romance novel beauties.
Then there was a hiatus due to raising demihellgoddesses, until one day I ran across a copy of Sunshine and had to hunt down and secure all the McKinleys I'd missed in the intervening years.
Now the book I reach for first when I want comfort reading is Spindle's End, because Rosie reminds me of both my daughters, and I can certainly sympathize with Katriona for having to deal with her. And frankly, certain of Rosie's, um, adventures make me giggle; cutting her own hair is something my elder would have done if she'd thought of it.
Then I usually work my way through all the others. I have my particular favorites, but it's more the stories that grab me, if that makes sense.
What I'm trying to say, I think, is that I'm short, I've battled with my weight since puberty, and when I read your books, it doesn't matter whether the women in them look like me or not, because they're so well drawn that I understand them and what they're going through anyway. I can identify with aspects of all of them (although I do have some trouble with, say, Jake; teenage boys being a bit outside my experience). That's good writing.
"The creative urge can come out in any form: in embroidery, in... cooking, in painting, drawing and sculpture, in composing music, as well as in writing books and stories... the artist's inner satisfaction was probably much the same." ~ Agatha Christie
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| Re: Silly Day, Part the First [message #41104 is a reply to message #41093 ] |
Fri, 08 April 2011 00:28 |
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boddhi_d
Messages: 70
Registered: October 2008
Location: Tennessee |
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EMoon wrote
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since I am, in fact, female...what I am is female ENOUGH
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Yes. And of all the 'enoughs' that we screw ourselves and others up with (smart enough, attractive enough, interesting enough...) you'd think these one would be pretty straightforward to sort out, at least for most of us.* It should just be a matter of how a person is plumbed. That it isn't is, shall we say, aggravating.
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because I sure have the wide hips (every doctor, for years of my young womanhood, looked at my pelvis as the ideal nursery for broods.
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Yup, know that one. I come from good peasant stock, I do. But I had these uppity notions about getting an education, traveling, having a purpose beyond procreation...**
And then there's the insidious, insulting 'compliment' of the form: You're going to make someone such a good wife someday. Usually in reference to some 'domestic art' like quilting or cooking or interior decorating. Hullo? I like hobbies that produce usable items. I like the appreciative mumble of people eating my cooking. I'm fascinated by the unlimited patterns and variations of piecing bits of fabric together. I like having a bedroom that is my retreat from the outside world. Et cetera. I do these things for *me*, not for the well-being and/or approval of a (at present theoretical) spouse.
--Dawn
*Making allowances for cross- and trans-gender folks, among others. I *still* think that they should be taught that they are 'enough', but I can understand why it might not be immediately obvious what that 'enough' is.
**Y'know the bit in Disney's Beauty and the Beast^, where Belle's just refused Gaston's um, proposal? And then she goes on to sing about wanting 'adventure in the great wide somewhere'? I'm so there.
^Which, let me just say, totally ripped off from Beauty. Love of books? Big solid horse? Sounds so-o-o familiar.
[Updated on: Fri, 08 April 2011 00:33]
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| About the tomboy comment... [message #41105 is a reply to message #41101 ] |
Fri, 08 April 2011 00:41 |
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elzebrook
Messages: 35
Registered: September 2010 |
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Judging by this commenter's definition of "tomboy" I would be a tomboy, which I am...not. Yes, I climb trees and waterfalls and have five snakes and play in the mud and poke dead things with sticks, but as a child I tended to do this in skirts. With petticoats, for preference (I love me some floof). Not that skirts are an indicator of female-ness, but hopefully you get the point.
The thing is, gender is a complicated set of behaviors and expectations that a culture associates with biological sex. As such, what different cultures (and individuals) define as "feminine" or "masculine" vary an absolutely insane amount. Not to mention the cultures that don't necessarily connect biological sex with gender anyway...
I like to tell people that I am one of the most feminine people they'll ever meet, it's just that my definition of feminine is perhaps a little different.
As a side note about the whole "shoulders" conversation...I come from Swiss farming stock. We are the type of women who, when the ox dies while plowing, plow the field ourselves, sling the dead ox over our shoulders, carry it home and make sausages out of it.
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| Re: Silly Day, Part the First [message #41107 is a reply to message #41078 ] |
Fri, 08 April 2011 00:57 |
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It's a feeling I've always had to contend with as well; I never fit into the idea of the "tomboy" but you could catch me just as easily hanging from a tree, scaling rocks, or having a tea party with real fine china. I never understood why it was an all-or-nothing with being "feminine" or being "adventurous/dirty/active/etc." I like my dresses for when I'm doing things that dresses are practical for, and I like my pants for the same reason. Though, I'm with ezlebrook--I can manage in my skirts just fine when I feel like it, and there's nothing wrong with a little floof. =D
Though, I've never fet that most of the McKinley heroines were tomboys. Maybe characters like Rosie of "Spindle's End", but I see it mostly as being a tomboy by default by rejecting the idea of needing to simper and avoid dirt to be "feminine." This may be why I like the heroines so much; they do things, but they don't do things by being "like boys." They do it by being GIRLS who do things.
Just like there's still not a really great word for boys who grow up enjoying being sweet and less active, with more of an emphasis on emotional connections rather than physical adventure, without resorting to insults like "pansy" or "girly-boy." Sometimes you don't fit into on description at all, so you end by default in another, even if it's equally as inadequate a category as the other.
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| Re: Silly Day, Part the First [message #41112 is a reply to message #41078 ] |
Fri, 08 April 2011 03:18 |
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KatydidNL
Messages: 35
Registered: March 2011
Location: The Netherlands |
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I've also struggled with the combination of femininity and intelligence. In so many books/films/minds of people you meet on the street, it appears that it's only possible to have one or the other. Finding that combination in Robin's books (as well as in other writers - Diana Wynne Jones, Madeleine L'Engle, Anne McCaffrey ) as a young teen was refreshing.
And as far as figuring out what it meant to be female/feminine, reading C.S. Lewis certainly didn't help. (Peter gets a sword from Father Christmas, Susan and Lucy get presents meant to keep them at a distance from battle...I believe the quote that sticks in my mind is something like "War gets ugly when women fight." Thanks, Aslan.) Nor did reading Tolkien, really, though thank God for Eowyn. Until I discovered the Girls who Do Things, it appeared my only option was to be a mysterious, beautiful, passive icon of womanhood. Or at any rate, stay at a full distance from the action. Even Nancy Drew kept getting rescued at the last minute by Ned. What a relief to finally find stories that pointed out a different way! (Since that icon of beautiful, passive womanhood thing was definitely not in my career path.)
And as for physical features...wouldn't it be so much easier if we could change our mindset to realize that our bodies are meant to help us be skillful, rather than only ornamental? I remember wanting to cry when my first bridesmaid's dress had to be let out hugely around the ribcage. The lady at the store made some snide comment. (I was 16.) Then I went to my voice lesson -- mentioned it to my teacher, who sniffed and said, "Well of course you have a wonderful ribcage. That's where you keep you singer's lungs."
Oooooooh.... *pain turns to grin*
So yeah. We(women) are not all wispy. And we're not all dumb. And we're not all passive. And we're not all ornamental. GOOD. You need strength - physical, mental, emotional - to do the things that need - that are worth - doing in this life. And your body, mind and spirit should reflect that strength.
And as you can see in the people around you (and in books - Robin's and other writer's as well) the women who are truly beautiful and truly feminine are the ones who are doing what they were meant to do all along. Whether that's fighting dragons with a sword, fighting vampires, translating an old manuscript, raising a slew of children, getting involved in politics or baking the world's best banana bread. With or without makeup.
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| Re: Silly Day, Part the First [message #41115 is a reply to message #41078 ] |
Fri, 08 April 2011 06:06 |
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AJLR
Messages: 2566
Registered: September 2008
Location: England, UK |
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The sunshine is so wonderful, isn't it. Trouble is, it's reminding me forcibly of the seeds I haven't got started yet. Oh well, at least there's the weekend coming.
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Who out there does not have 3G on their iPad? Are you happy?
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Mine hasn't, and I'm not finding it that much of a problem. For use around the house and garden I've switched the wireless function of the router back on, so connectivity's fine. More and more places have wifi, either free or a marginal cost. When I'm on a train that doesn't have wifi, if I really want to use the iPad for email/web work I can just turn on the wifi access point function on my (Android 2.2, soon to be 2.3) phone and connect the iPad via the 3G facility on that. But really, it's simpler to use the phone for most things. On long journeys I tend to use the iPad more for reading the books I've got on it or playing the odd stand-alone game. And when I'm in meetings and I'm using it to take notes on, I can email the notes to myself once I'm connected again.
"Never let a computer know you're in a hurry."
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| Re: Silly Day, Part the First [message #41128 is a reply to message #41078 ] |
Fri, 08 April 2011 13:30 |
texturedknitter
Messages: 4
Registered: April 2011 |
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My iPad does not have 3G, but it always has wireless Internet access when I'm home. (I can go from having an idea of something I'd like to knit, to finding a pattern for it on Ravelry, to downloading the PDF, viewing it, and casting on, all without leaving the couch. It's awesome. Although lap cats possibly make better iPad stands than hellhounds do.)
Mostly I just use my iPhone instead, if I need Internet access when I'm out and about. I pre-load my iPad's GoodReader (for PDFs)and Stanza (any other format of reading materials) if I want to be able to read something on the big screen and I'm unsure of Internet access. The Writer app doesn't require Internet to let me work on patterns, blog posts, etc.
If you don't have a home wireless setup, or if you need to do things on the go that you're not happy using your phone to do, then I can see the 3G iPad being a good investment. I'm happier not having the extra monthly charge, but ymmv.
PS - First time poster. I had read and loved your books (and got to hear you speak at a Balticon one year), but I only found your blog through a knitting designer's retweet. Small world!
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| Re: Silly Day, Part the First [message #41129 is a reply to message #41114 ] |
Fri, 08 April 2011 15:38 |
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anne_d
Messages: 210
Registered: October 2008
Location: Orange County, California |
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| Diane in MN wrote on Fri, 08 April 2011 00:48 |
| HeiQ wrote on Thu, 07 April 2011 22:47 |
And I hate it that men get called men and I'm called a lady (why can't I be called a woman???). Nothing gets my goat as much as being told that as a "lady" I have certain jobs that I HAVE to do and that there are certain ways that I HAVE to be.
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You are not alone in this. Do you know Peggy Seeger's song "I'm Gonna be an Engineer"?
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Love that song. Grew up with that song.
For those looking for books with girls who aren't, how can I put this, forced into some mold of perceived femininity, might I suggest Arthur Ransome's Swallows and Amazons series?
"The creative urge can come out in any form: in embroidery, in... cooking, in painting, drawing and sculpture, in composing music, as well as in writing books and stories... the artist's inner satisfaction was probably much the same." ~ Agatha Christie
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| Re: Silly Day, Part the First [message #41158 is a reply to message #41078 ] |
Sat, 09 April 2011 02:42 |
Davis10
Messages: 4
Registered: October 2010
Location: Pennsylvania |
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My favorite Dianna Wynne Jones book is Howl's Moving Castle. I have read it multiple times, out loud to get other people into it, and to myself when I felt the need to revisit the story and did not have anyone else to try to introduce to it. It is probably one of my favorite books to read out loud, most likely because I love the humor in it.
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| Re: Silly Day, Part the First [message #41166 is a reply to message #41129 ] |
Sat, 09 April 2011 05:52 |
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Mrs Redboots
Messages: 943
Registered: October 2008
Location: London, UK |
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| anne_d wrote on Fri, 08 April 2011 20:38 |
For those looking for books with girls who aren't, how can I put this, forced into some mold of perceived femininity, might I suggest Arthur Ransome's Swallows and Amazons series?
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Actually, many of the school stories that are contemporaneous with Arthur Ransome feature strong, independent heroines. I believe that was one reason for their popularity (and arguably a reason for their continued popularity), a world where women could rule and be independent without necessarily having to have A Man to lean on!
As for Nancy Blackett, the only time she ever showed any weakness at all was when she had mumps.
Mrs Redboots
I love my computer because my friends live in it!
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| Re: Silly Day, Part the First [message #41178 is a reply to message #41129 ] |
Sat, 09 April 2011 11:56 |
claning
Messages: 266
Registered: February 2010
Location: California |
Senior Member |
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| anne_d wrote on Fri, 08 April 2011 15:38 |
For those looking for books with girls who aren't, how can I put this, forced into some mold of perceived femininity, might I suggest Arthur Ransome's Swallows and Amazons series?
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YESSSSS!!!!!
O Chris Laning <claning@igc.org> - Davis, California
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| Re: Silly Day, Part the First [message #41217 is a reply to message #41114 ] |
Sun, 10 April 2011 15:03 |
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HeiQ
Messages: 78
Registered: February 2011
Location: Canada |
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| Diane in MN wrote on Fri, 08 April 2011 03:48 |
You are not alone in this. Do you know Peggy Seeger's song "I'm Gonna be an Engineer"?
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Nope, I can't say I ever have. I just read the words, and there were some pretty good lines in there[Dainty as a Dresden statue, gentle as a Jersey cow/Smooth as silk, gives cream and milk/
Learn to coo, learn to moo/That's what you do to be a lady, now.], but it was a bit TOO angry for me, and I never actually wanted to be a boy haha... I never felt like I had those sorts of decisions forced on me by anyone I really cared about, so it's a little hard to relate to the song in some ways, but thanks for the link.
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