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| The night after the night before [message #38956] |
Wed, 02 February 2011 19:33  |
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 Black Bear
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Registered: September 2008
Location: Indianapolis, IN USA |
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The night after the night before
"The time is always right to do what's right."--MLK Jr.
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| Re: The night after the night before [message #38961 is a reply to message #38956 ] |
Wed, 02 February 2011 20:24  |
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Julia
Messages: 531
Registered: October 2008
Location: Library School |
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But can a modern kid disappear into a story the way I could forty or fifty years ago?
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I'm not sure if I qualify as a 'modern kid', now that I've reached the ripe old age of 21, but I have always been someone who lived in and surrounded by books, completely consumed by story.
I first read Robin's books around 1998 or 1999, and I definitely could (and did) disappear into stories.
Still do, as a matter of fact. But it has changed, somehow.
Granted, much has changed since '98, and nine/ten/eleven-year-olds today are, as a rule, much more involved with technology.
But still... if I honestly thought that the entertainments afforded by the vast reaches of the internet, the immediacy of texting and Facebook and everything had somehow interfered with the sheer delight of falling into a book, leaving the world behind-- that would be too sad, too terrible.
[Updated on: Wed, 02 February 2011 21:39]
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| Re: The night after the night before [message #38963 is a reply to message #38956 ] |
Wed, 02 February 2011 21:25 |
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Jabenami
Messages: 12
Registered: October 2010
Location: New York |
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"But can a modern kid disappear into a story the way I could forty or fifty years ago?"
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Yes, yes, definitely yes! I spent most of my formative years in and out of stories...mostly in. I lived in Tolkien for most of middle school (well, the alternative was middle school for heaven's sake, what was I supposed to do?) and had my share of adventures, romances, etc. conveniently located inside my own head with the help of other peoples' stories, including yours. (Mostly Beauty and The Blue Sword for the simple reason that I ran across them first. I definitely inhabited a couple dozen versions of Beauty and the Beast while growing up. And then there was Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials and all these interesting universes. Anyway, I spent a lot of my childhood having my own adventures in other peoples' words.)
I'm 24, does that count for being a modern kid?
And there is certainly a bigger sense of...community, I suppose. You read a book you like, you go online and find everyone else who has read it and what they like and realize you're not weird for reading Return of the King in class every day for the entirety of seventh grade. So maybe there isn't that sense of something special, of having discovered something amazing and it's all mine (and, well, the author's) and you have no idea how great this is. But that moment when a book grabs you and refuses to let go...I think as long as the books are still here and kids keep reading them (and I think you have to be a kid to have a story wrap itself around and become a part of your mind and shape you), then they won't lose that power.
The alternative is too depressing to contemplate.
[Updated on: Wed, 02 February 2011 21:29]
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| Re: The night after the night before [message #38964 is a reply to message #38963 ] |
Wed, 02 February 2011 21:32 |
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Julia
Messages: 531
Registered: October 2008
Location: Library School |
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Exactly. Jabenami, I agree with everything you said.
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I think you have to be a kid to have a story wrap itself around and become a part of your mind and shape you
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Reminds me of these quotes from Diane Setterfield's lovely novel, The Thirteenth Tale...
"There is something about words. In expert hands, manipulated deftly, they take you prisoner. Wind themselves around your limbs like spider silk, and when you are so enthralled you cannot move, they pierce your skin, enter your blood, numb your thoughts. Inside you they work their magic."
"I have always been a reader; I have read at every stage of my life, and there has never been a time when reading was not my greatest joy. And yet I cannot pretend that the reading I have done in my adult years matches in its impact on my soul the reading I did as a child. I still believe in stories. I still forget myself when I am in the middle of a good book. Yet it is not the same. Books are, for me, it must be said, the most important thing; what I cannot forget is that there was a time when they were at once more banal and more essential than that. When I was a child, books were everything. And so there is in me, always, a nostalgic yearning for the lost pleasure of books. It is not a yearning that one ever expects to be fulfilled."
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| Re: The night after the night before [message #38973 is a reply to message #38956 ] |
Thu, 03 February 2011 02:10 |
Mismatched Socks
Messages: 24
Registered: May 2010
Location: well, that depends. . . |
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But can a modern kid disappear into a story the way I could forty or fifty years ago?
Speaking as someone blighted by the second shrubbery (well, ok, I'd probably have been cynical anyway): yes, absolutely. I'm twenty*, and while I've noticed that I mostly don't go as deep into stories as I used to, at least most of the time (I went all the way into "Hellhound" just over a year ago, and I don't think I'm all the way out yet), I went all the way in when I was a little kid. All the way in.
And I can tell you that, as an extremely self-conscious jr. high kid, it was enormously important for me to be able to disappear into a story and stop thinking about me and how I did (or didn't) fit in to the world around me.
but I’m busy telling myself that it’s different now
Yes, I would suppose that it is different. Because it isn't just Tolkien now, and it hasn't been for a long time, so we younger types have gotten to go deep into whole lot of different stories. And perhaps that means that we don't go in quite as far as you did-- there's no way to know. But it seems to me that going really deep into a story happens in two places: at the beginning, where it grabs you and makes you forget about everything that's going on around you to focus on the story (this is the part I seem to be losing. I can't tell if it's because there's more to forget, or because there are things I can't afford to forget), and at the end, where it refuses to let go and lives on in the back of your mind for the rest of your life. I don't see that having more stories available really hinders either of these processes.
But there is that thrill of only you (and possibly your best friend) know—which I (and my best friend) had about LOTR, and which kind of thing I don’t think is a possibility in today’s plugged in and tweeting and texting world
Uh, well, um. In spite of the phenomena of Harry Potter and certain other bestsellers which shall remain unnamed, liking to read is still not likely to make you popular in public school (yes, really). Additionally, all the texting and tweeting is still just a form of socializing, which, like every other form of socializing, is dominated by the popular kids (see: depressing news stories about cyberbullying that I'm not going to look up and link to because they're, well, depressing). And kids' social circles still consist largely of the other kids they've met in real life-- they just use the internet and the everything else to talk to each other when they're not in the same physical space. That said, there are author websites like this one, and many forums where people who haven't met in real life talk about books, and kids can use those. But if you're the only kid in school who's on those websites talking about books, I still think you've got a secret. Maybe it's not quite the same level of secret. I certainly wouldn't know-- I didn't have useful internet access until I g
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| Re: The night after the night before [message #38980 is a reply to message #38956 ] |
Thu, 03 February 2011 10:40 |
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my daughter is 16 and she is reading my books by tamora pierce and mercedes lackey and robin mckinley and she loves them and when you talk to her when she is reading ,she goes 'did you say something mom?'lol
Bonnie Holmes the faster ahead I go, the more behind I get
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| Re: The night after the night before [message #38986 is a reply to message #38956 ] |
Thu, 03 February 2011 13:20 |
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Mrs Redboots
Messages: 943
Registered: October 2008
Location: London, UK |
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But can a modern kid disappear into a story the way I could forty or fifty years ago?
I don't know about kids - my daughter is grown up now and my grandson is not yet of an age to read for himself - but I still can! I disappear into a book - PEGASUS, the day I got it, and some days ago E Moon's DEED OF PAKSENARRION - and that's that for the day... You want supper? Perfectly good Chinese take-away across the road....
[Updated on: Thu, 03 February 2011 13:20]
Mrs Redboots
I love my computer because my friends live in it!
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| Re: The night after the night before [message #38988 is a reply to message #38956 ] |
Thu, 03 February 2011 15:11 |
judith
Messages: 246
Registered: October 2008
Location: United States |
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The tiger had had cubs so she was off exhibit all summer. We had a label on the safety rail. We had a label on a vertical panel next to the rail. And we had a video screen showing the inside of the tiger den with the mom and her cubs. All said in some form “OUR TIGER IS OFF DISPLAY, YOU CAN SEE HER ON THE MONITOR.” And Every Single Damn Day we were working in there, we’d get people coming up, leaning directly ON the rail with the label to shout at us, “Where’s the tiger? Hey, is the tiger in there with you? Oh my god! Where’s the tiger?”
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Ooooh. I'd be SO tempted, after the first few times this happened, to print up some cards for the local literacy-for-adults program and hand them out with a serious, sympathetic expression, saying, "I'm sorry about your problem...call the number on this card."
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| Re: The night after the night before [message #39002 is a reply to message #39001 ] |
Thu, 03 February 2011 21:56 |
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I don't do that, but I know a lot of people who do. You're definitely not alone!
Smooshes!
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| Re: The night after the night before [message #39024 is a reply to message #39001 ] |
Fri, 04 February 2011 09:13 |
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Mrs Redboots
Messages: 943
Registered: October 2008
Location: London, UK |
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| mgw1979 wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 02:54 |
Does anyone else "double read" books? That is, am I the only one who re-reads a great book as soon as it's done? I find that the first time around, I'm speeding through to find out what happens and therefore miss details, or an author will have done neat things that make me realize that early parts of the book had much different meanings than I realized at the time, at which point I want to go back to the beginning and read it in light of what I now know.
At any rate, am I alone?
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Absolutely not! The second read is far and away the best. But then, of course, you have to put it away until it leaves your short-term memory before you can have a third read...
Mrs Redboots
I love my computer because my friends live in it!
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| Re: The night after the night before [message #39032 is a reply to message #39001 ] |
Fri, 04 February 2011 14:55 |
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shalea
Messages: 781
Registered: October 2008
Location: Raleigh, North Carolina, ... |
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| mgw1979 wrote on Thu, 03 February 2011 21:54 |
...Does anyone else "double read" books? That is, am I the only one who re-reads a great book as soon as it's done? I find that the first time around, I'm speeding through to find out what happens and therefore miss details, or an author will have done neat things that make me realize that early parts of the book had much different meanings than I realized at the time, at which point I want to go back to the beginning and read it in light of what I now know.
At any rate, am I alone?
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Not at all! Depends on the book and the circumstances under which I'm reading it. I finished Chalice in an airport while heading out to visit my parents and re-read it again immediately, but since I'm trying to wait patiently for the second half of Pegasus, I've taken a bit of time between my first and second readings.
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| Re: The night after the night before [message #39034 is a reply to message #39001 ] |
Fri, 04 February 2011 15:47 |
ravenclawgirl
Messages: 75
Registered: February 2009
Location: Ohio |
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| mgw1979 wrote on Thu, 03 February 2011 21:54 |
Does anyone else "double read" books? That is, am I the only one who re-reads a great book as soon as it's done? I find that the first time around, I'm speeding through to find out what happens and therefore miss details, or an author will have done neat things that make me realize that early parts of the book had much different meanings than I realized at the time, at which point I want to go back to the beginning and read it in light of what I now know.
At any rate, am I alone?
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For me, at least, it's very very rare that I double-read. The only time I remember doing it was with Howl's Moving Castle. Though, to be fair, often at least part of the reason is that I got 15 books out of the library, and they all want to be read right NOW, and in any case they're all due in 3 days, and I really need to finish them or renew them, and I just don't have time to reread that particular book.
Of course, normal rereading - after a few months or a year or longer - is par for the course.
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| Re: The night after the night before [message #39048 is a reply to message #38956 ] |
Fri, 04 February 2011 21:58 |
Aspen
Messages: 5
Registered: February 2011
Location: US |
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I'd say I probably count as a modern kid, since I'm still in high school. Anyways, when I was younger, in elementary school, I think I'd definitely describe myself as disappearing into books, as I'd spend hours reading and just ignoring everything else. Recently, I've been far busier with less reading time, and when I do, I don't think I get as into the books as I used to. But when I was younger, I never used the Internet- I only started when I was in fourth grade, I think? (Facebook and Myspace weren't really around then, and I've obstinately refused to submit to my friends to get a Facebook account. Which doesn't stop me from wasting far too much time on the Internet.)
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| Re: The night after the night before [message #39057 is a reply to message #38961 ] |
Sat, 05 February 2011 05:28 |
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Marina
Messages: 245
Registered: January 2009
Location: Near San Jose CA |
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I can't seem to read fiction on screen. I've got books in my iPhone, I have access to many more on this laptop, but I'd just rather not.
I can and do get lost going down tangents of information, via MentalFloss, Care2, and other gateways. I am NOT getting my fiction read, and I may have to withdraw from some of the gateways, in spite of how I enjoy the info-gathering, because I'm not getting to LiveJournal anymore. I've already had to give up Twitter for reason of it taking up 6 hrs a day (okay, I was overdoing the info-gathering).
A. Marina Fournier
❦If you want a golden rule that will fit everything, this is it: Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful or believe to be beautiful ❧ William Morris❦
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| Re: The night after the night before [message #39058 is a reply to message #38973 ] |
Sat, 05 February 2011 05:35 |
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Marina
Messages: 245
Registered: January 2009
Location: Near San Jose CA |
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I can still, at times, be completely oblivious to what I'm reading. Hours can go by while I'm caught up in a story, and suddenly my bladder will be yelling at me before I've realized how much time has passed.
However, in 4th grade, when I must have reached a stopping point in what I was reading, I looked up, only to find the entire rest of the class and the teacher looking at me, wondering when I'd surface.
A. Marina Fournier
❦If you want a golden rule that will fit everything, this is it: Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful or believe to be beautiful ❧ William Morris❦
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| Re: The night after the night before [message #39083 is a reply to message #39058 ] |
Sat, 05 February 2011 14:46 |
claning
Messages: 266
Registered: February 2010
Location: California |
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| Marina wrote on Sat, 05 February 2011 05:35 |
I can still, at times, be completely oblivious to what I'm reading. Hours can go by while I'm caught up in a story, and suddenly my bladder will be yelling at me before I've realized how much time has passed.
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It's always been like that for me. When I'm reading -- especially fiction -- anything in the universe other than my brain might as well not exist. My mom used to have to call me to dinner multiple times before I even heard her.
I've discovered that this ability to "hyperfocus" is a gift, but it's a dangerous gift. In hyperfocus mode, I don't have control over my attention, and I really can't pay attention to anything else without having to make a conscious and serious effort to snap out of it.
I'm told this is actually a symptom of ADD -- the inability to consciously control your attention is at the root of ADD problems whether they involve too much or too little ability to focus on something.
O Chris Laning <claning@igc.org> - Davis, California
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| Re: The night after the night before [message #39271 is a reply to message #38956 ] |
Thu, 10 February 2011 02:01 |
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danceswithpahis
Messages: 380
Registered: October 2008 |
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Black Bear: I had to laugh at your experiences at the zoo, since I've had similar ones at my zoo. This example is admittedly probably more due to people not WANTING to hear the message, but in our touch tanks we have a rule that you can only use one finger at a time to touch (under the theory that you can't really pick any of our critters up with just one finger). There are various signs posted around the touch tank room AND every single visitor who walks through the door is informed about this rule by a staff member. Do people listen? Some of them, yes, but many still ignore you (and then are upset when you call them on it). I personally appreciated the signage, though, since I used it regularly. For example, if someone asked me the weights of our walruses, I would glance behind them at the large sign that had this information and read it to them. Or if someone asked me about the habitat of a particular animal that I didn't know as well, I'd look at the large map on the wall with their native homes brightly colored. Sometimes I'd get caught (by someone who would usually blush and say, "I guess I should read the signs first, huh?"), but most of the time people didn't notice.
Although on computer manuals and such (mentioned by someone else), I will say in the defense of those who do not read such things the fact that they are often obtuse and obscure unless you already know enough not to need them very much. I find such instructions are most helpful to turn to after you've already wrestled with the program/issue for awhile, and now know enough that you have a specific question (how do I use a keyboard command to close a window, for example) rather than wanting to learn everything.
I will long remember a horrible experience with trying to accomplish something following the included instructions. I am not particularly handy in fixing things or doing anything carpentry-like; this is a severe enough handicap in life that I do try to correct it somewhat (especially now that I live alone and getting help is trickier), but I'm still not likely ever to become a handywoman. One day I was trying to replace a doorknob on my room, and because I hadn't really done so before, I tried to read the directions. They were meant to fit multiple doorknobs that supposedly were all similar, only some of the parts mentioned or pictured were not at ALL in my kit, and other parts (whose function I can only guess at) did not make the cut list for the instructions. The authors of the instructions referred to several parts by their names only, and I didn't have the experience to cut to the section that actually had the knowledge I needed. At one point in time I was reading through the instructions, printed in English, French, and Spanish, and thought in despair, "I speak all three of these languages to varying degrees, and yet I can't understand ANY of this." The door was also not fitted properly to the doorframe, and the screws on the old doorknob w
"Oh good! My dog found the chainsaw!"
-- Lilo ("Lilo and Stitch")
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| Re: The night after the night before [message #39272 is a reply to message #39271 ] |
Thu, 10 February 2011 03:15 |
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Diane in MN
Messages: 2732
Registered: October 2008
Location: Twin Cities, MN, USA |
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| danceswithpahis wrote on Thu, 10 February 2011 01:01 |
I will long remember a horrible experience with trying to accomplish something following the included instructions.
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I do hate it when the instruction or maintenance manual that comes with Your New Product, Model X also applies to Models W, Y, Z, and X1, especially when they give you reference diagrams that may or may not apply to your particular model. Evil example: bigger snowblowers have a pin in the auger assembly that's meant to break if the snow gets too heavy and clogs the mechanism; this stops the auger, of course, and keeps the motor from burning out. This is good, but if you want to keep blowing snow you have to replace the pin. When this happened to me some years ago, I muttered a bit and headed back into the garage to perform this supposedly simple operation. I had the pin, I had the book, and the auger assembly in the book did not look like the one on my snowblower at all. After way too long lying on the garage floor staring at the snowblower and saying to the world at large "It looks like it has to go HERE, but the book doesn't look like that, so where the $%&*@! is it supposed to go?", I finally put the pin where it looked like it should go. It turned out to be the right place. So what should have been a five-minute job took close to half an hour. Aaargh! I would have enjoyed the thrill of victory more if it hadn't been so cold on the garage floor.
"The point of books is to have way too many but to always feel you never have enough . . . " Louise Erdrich
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| Re: The night after the night before [message #39326 is a reply to message #39272 ] |
Sat, 12 February 2011 03:17 |
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danceswithpahis
Messages: 380
Registered: October 2008 |
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| Diane in MN wrote on Thu, 10 February 2011 03:15 |
| danceswithpahis wrote on Thu, 10 February 2011 01:01 |
I will long remember a horrible experience with trying to accomplish something following the included instructions.
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I do hate it when the instruction or maintenance manual that comes with Your New Product, Model X also applies to Models W, Y, Z, and X1, especially when they give you reference diagrams that may or may not apply to your particular model. Evil example: bigger snowblowers have a pin in the auger assembly that's meant to break if the snow gets too heavy and clogs the mechanism; this stops the auger, of course, and keeps the motor from burning out. This is good, but if you want to keep blowing snow you have to replace the pin. When this happened to me some years ago, I muttered a bit and headed back into the garage to perform this supposedly simple operation. I had the pin, I had the book, and the auger assembly in the book did not look like the one on my snowblower at all. After way too long lying on the garage floor staring at the snowblower and saying to the world at large "It looks like it has to go HERE, but the book doesn't look like that, so where the $%&*@! is it supposed to go?", I finally put the pin where it looked like it should go. It turned out to be the right place. So what should have been a five-minute job took close to half an hour. Aaargh! I would have enjoyed the thrill of victory more if it hadn't been so cold on the garage floor.
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Yes, exactly! And sometimes even when it's the right model and such, you STILL can't tell. They're assuming a certain amount of prior knowledge which I personally don't always have, so saying things like, "You have to put chestia aia in the machin truc located just below the pisica with the four round fleurettes...." just doesn't clarify things somehow. (for anyone wondering, no, those words didn't make sense at all in the sentence....)
"Oh good! My dog found the chainsaw!"
-- Lilo ("Lilo and Stitch")
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